Following on mostly clean routes ie The Nose - when to fix/ascend or belay/free?

Hi Everyone
My partner and I are considering a 2-3 day Nose run. We are both solid 5.10 but have little aid/big wall experience. We got out this weekend and practiced aiding and hauling on a bunch of different routes in the Adirondacks from 5.8 to 5.12. Obviously on the 5.11+ and 5.12 routes the follower would be ascending just the same as the leader would be aiding. But for 5.11- and below where the leader can free most or all of the route what is the best option for the follower? Specifically on The Nose, is it best to just have the policy the leader always fixes the rope and the second ascends/rope solos no matter what the grade of the pitch so that the leader can be simultaneously hauling? Or are there certain pitches (those that go all free at 5.10 and below) where it would be quicker for the leader to belay the second up and then haul the bag after (or perhaps before). Any insights on this question and any Nose specific scenario examples would be much appreciated! Thanks everyone.

More efficient for the leader to haul the bag, while the second jugs the fixed line and keeps the haul bag from getting stuck.

There are few if any senarios in the Nose where it's faster for the second to follow while the bags are sitting idle. If the bags are not moving, you're not making progress. Standard policy on just about all walls, C2 or A5, is the second always jugs or self belays, even if on 5.6. If the leader has to belay you, then he cannot get the bags moving, which means once you reach the next pitch, now you have to sit on your ass doing nothing while your partner hauls the pitch (unless you rope solo up the next pitch).

Further more, bags do get stuck on occasion. I dont think I have climbed a route where the bags dident get hung up at least once. If you're already at the next belay and the bags get stuck, you need to rap down and free them, which even further wastes time. If you're jugging and they get hung up, you can just swing over and fix it most of the time.

In short, unless you want to spend forever on the wall, jug every pitch you follow regardless of grade. If it's easy as balls (there are only 2 pitches on the Nose under 5.9 if I recall right), then just belay yourself with the GriGri. If you want to actually follow free, you need to leave the bags on the ground and carry a backpack.

haul while simultaneously belaying the follower in the stovelegs. just plan on how to manage the ropes while you pull in slack from both lead and haul line. its windy up there, lots of rope blowing sideways and possible hangups. self belaying while following seems logical in theory but if you dont have some mileage rope soloing closer to the ground under your belt i would advise against. jugging next to 5.9 and 5.10 splitters is a sad affair. free climbig grades are stiff high up on el cap, particularly with cumulative effects of hauling, exposure, dehydration, etc.

Also, if you're going to do this stuff where the second is following free on an active belay, it's going to be really, REALLY hard to do it in two days, especially if you top out at 5.10+. Doing it in two days is in some ways the hardest way to do it as you have to be fast, but you also have to haul. At least if you do it in a single push you dont have to haul which will save tons of effort and a solid amount of time. By further complicating things with a free follower, and trying to do it in two days you are really stacking the odds against you.

If you are adamant on following most of the route free, consider doing it in a single push. Climb to El Cap tower (P14 I think) and see how long it takes you. If you're comfortable with your time, you might consider just continuing to the top. You would probably be climbing at night, but at least you would not have to haul and you can then follow free.

Samuel,
Following free is unlikely to be quick if you have good jugging skills and will take about the same time as it takes the bags to be hauled.

However, if you want to free climb some pitches for fun, then that's a different matter. A reasonable way is just for the leader to tie the lead rope off at the belay after having taken up the slack, then the second free climbs using two mini traxions on the rope as projection.

All the best, hope it goes well and send a night on the top - well worth it

Thanks everyone for the extremely helpful and reasonable advice. I guess it's just a bit sad to have to jug past so many high quality free moves just for the sake of getting yourselves and your pig up to the top quickly. Don't think we have it in us right now for a NIAD so this is what we will do. Cheers, Sam

Samuel Janis wrote: I guess it's just a bit sad to have to jug past so many high quality free moves just for the sake of getting yourselves and your pig up to the top quickly.

I hear ya...big wall climbing is about 95% work & 5% actual climbing. Calling that & free climbing both climbing is about the same as calling golf & soccer the same sport because they are both played on a grass medium w/ a ball.

revans90, that was one of the funnier posts I've seen in a while. And so true.

I have a somewhat related question. I'm wanting to do some multi pitch with my girlfriend this summer. She's fairly new to climbing and in order to follow some of the routes I'd like to do, she'll probably have to jug through certain portions. However, it would be nice for her to have the opportunity to climb or attempt to climb the routes free before resorting to juggling. Would it be valid to trail a static line on lead, fix it at the top and then belay her up with the dynamic lead rope? When she hits a portion she can't free, she will simply begin juggling the fixed static line, while I continue to belay her from the top on the lead rope. This also allows for me to back her up, in the event that her ascenders come off the static rope. To caveat this, these will not be routes that require hauling a bag and I realize this is much slower than having her simply ascend the fixed lead-rope. Are there any pitfalls to this tactic that I'm not seeing?

Hi Jeff,

You can save yourself the weight of a second rope by having your girlfriend jug the lead line. Have her tie in as normal and then put a GriGri on the rope immediately in front of the tie-in point with a stopper knot in the break strand. She can climb safely on this (though I'm sure Petzl doesn't recommend it) until it gets too hard. Then she can just put an ascender on the rope and start jugging. After the crux section, she can clip to a piece of gear or two at a stance and feed the slack back through the GriGri to reset the system.

As the belayer, you'll want to be using a plaquette (ATC-guide, etc.) directly off the anchor. You can just pull in slack whenever possible. If she's freeing, you'll belay like normal. If she's jugging, you'll just be waiting. If she just finished jugging, you'll be taking in her extra slack that she's feeding back out.

Another option would be to simply select routes that are within both of your abilities as a jugging scenario can be complicated or overwhelming and you're unlikely to be in a position to coach effectively.

Jeff Moon wrote:I have a somewhat related question. I'm wanting to do some multi pitch with my girlfriend this summer. She's fairly new to climbing and in order to follow some of the routes I'd like to do, she'll probably have to jug through certain portions. However, it would be nice for her to have the opportunity to climb or attempt to climb the routes free before resorting to juggling. Would it be valid to trail a static line on lead, fix it at the top and then belay her up with the dynamic lead rope? When she hits a portion she can't free, she will simply begin juggling the fixed static line, while I continue to belay her from the top on the lead rope. This also allows for me to back her up, in the event that her ascenders come off the static rope. To caveat this, these will not be routes that require hauling a bag and I realize this is much slower than having her simply ascend the fixed lead-rope. Are there any pitfalls to this tactic that I'm not seeing?

In general a new climber is going to have a tough time switching between free-climbing and jugging a rope. You are also adding complexity to the system with your extra rope.

I'd suggest giving her a single ascender and letting her use that on the tough sections by clipping it to the belay line, sliding it up, and then standing in a foot loop to by-pass a tough part. Unless you are a total ass and taking her on 5.12 routes when she is a 5.10 climber she'll probably be able to find a stance a few feet above the tough part. You should also be comfortable doing a mini haul system (3:1 or 5:1) on the belay line to give her assistance in getting past a crux move.

Really though, the best solution, is to find a real climbing partner for your hard stuff this summer and climb the easier stuff with your girl friend until she is comfortable following whatever it is you really want to climb.

You should also probably read this post while you are at it: semi-rad.com/2013/04/how-to…

I agree....how about just giving a tight rope and/or have her pull on a few bits of gear ? Way better than jugging a fixed line

revans90 wrote:generally the leader will get to the top of the pitch and set up a cluster fuck of a belay anchor,tangling all the ropes. the second will kick the bags and the leader will attempt to haul but due to his lack of understanding will make little progress hauling. only when the second finishes cleaning the pitch will he remedy the shit show, only after repelling to unstuck the bag many times. general frustration ensues at the belay and finally the leader is back leading, leaving the train wreak of a belay behind. Finishing the pitch, a long yelling match will ensue as the leader will try and explain in detail how to break down the belay, all at the top of his lungs. All understanding of the process is lost in the afternoon wind. By a miracle of god the tangles are dealt with, haul bags are sent flying, the second starts jugging and the fubar bigwall express grinds on.... ...mean while all the bridge monkeys suck down cobras and spray at passer bys about running the pdl and sending....ohhhing up at the sit shows.... Back on the wall all hope is lost at this point for this parties plan of free climbing the "money" pitches. Night has taken the party by surprise. Things are not going as planned. Fear and fatigue take over and the mood is as dark as the night. The agony of this big wall party can be seen as a dim bubble of sorrow from the ground. dreams of big wall glory seem as far far away, the ground and curry pizza with a warm bed closer and closer. There is hope. By sheer tenacity and determination the fubar express grinds its way to Dolt tower. Relief and the smell of urine reaches this team and a good nights sleep. The cool morning greets them. With the new found strength and mental fortitude, they dont bail! Success and struggle is with them every step of the way. The bigwall gears keep grinding and the top is reached. They find no glory, only lessons in self reliance and resilience. They did it. Suffering their way down the east ledges they return to the bridge seeking the super sweet tom evans pics and to suck down cobars, spray beta at their bridge monkey comrades. that was fun.....but really you can do easily belay the first stove leg and haul it after. your partner will thank you and you wouldn't loose to much time and hauling that pitch is cleaner than other pitches.

There are some great reasoned responses, to the op
20kn's and others too,
Infact while at 1st thinking of recommending to try an 'easier, (to haul) line,
like Leaning tower, to get your systems dialed in.
I'm glad that I waited it out, my amazement and compliments, great thread .

You'll haul, get sick of it and then start going faster...well, maybe you will.

Good luck

That's what I figured. I haven't done much rope ascending myself so I don't have much of a concept of how much faffiing is involved. Thanks for the inputs Ryan!

Ryan Hill wrote:You should also be comfortable doing a mini haul system (3:1 or 5:1) on the belay line to give her assistance in getting past a crux move.

This is only practical if you're willing to bring up the necessary pulleys. If rigged with just biners, the frictional losses will effectively render you 3:1 as a 1:1. 5:1 is so much of a cluster that it's not worth the effort.

Marc801 wrote: This is only practical if you're willing to bring up the necessary pulleys. If rigged with just biners, the frictional losses will effectively render you 3:1 as a 1:1. 5:1 is so much of a cluster that it's not worth the effort.

In my thankfully limited experience 3:1 hauling a follower, you are definitely gaining some advantage even without pulleys. Building a 3:1 with a carabiner is not as efficient as it would be with a pulley but I was able to haul my free hanging partner ~10ft with nothing but a prussik, a round stock carabiner, and a massive amount of try hard.