Fleece jacket advice

I'm looking for a piece of apparel that I can use as outerwear for hiking and climbing in the fall and as a midlayer beneath a softshell or the like during cold winter months. I was initially thinking that a midweight fleece would do the job, but am wondering if synthetic insulated jackets or sweaters like this one have replaced them? Which would you recommend is better suited for my needs?

Nano puff would be more packable, water and wind resistant and versatile. Fleece would be less expensive, more durable and more socially acceptable to wear indoors unless you are at some climbers/skiers hut in the mountains. There are more wind-resistant fleece pieces like Patagonia R4(??), but they can get so damn hot with even slightest movement.

Nano Puff is an overkill if you're just looking for a layer to wear while single-pitch cragging and car camping, IMO, because you can always throw a rain jacket over it to achieve rain and wind protection.

Sorry, but I'm getting some mixed messages. On the one hand, you say that it would be more packable, waterproof, etc, but then go on to say that it would be overkill. Is that to say you recommend fleece?

What about something like the Marmot Variant (rather than the Nanopuff)?

Thanks.

scienceguy288 wrote:Sorry, but I'm getting some mixed messages. On the one hand, you say that it would be more packable, waterproof, etc, but then go on to say that it would be overkill. Is that to say you recommend fleece? What about something like the Marmot Variant (rather than the Nanopuff)? Thanks.

I think what he's saying is that there are pros/cons to each choice (obviously, since if one was clearly better, why would people keep buying the other?). If you need the packability, water and wind resistance, and versatility of the nano puff, get it, but if all you need it for is car camping and single-pitch cragging, it's overkill.

Which sort of leaves it at "you probably know how best you'll use it, so given the tradeoffs, which makes more sense in your situation?"

Get the nanopuff. It's like the best layer ever created. I used it all the time

Light insulated jackets/hoodies have pretty much replaced fleece in my outdoor wardrobe. Insulated is generally lighter, more weather resistant, less bulky.

Cutting edge is Patagonia Nano Air, but pretty much every company sells one.

Kai Larson wrote:Light insulated jackets/hoodies have pretty much replaced fleece in my outdoor wardrobe. Insulated is generally lighter, more weather resistant, less bulky.

Ditto that. Easier to wear under a shell (slippery fabric slides against the shell. I have a old, mesh-lined GoreTex parka that absolutely refuses to admit a fleece), more wind protection, and overall nicer feeling IMO.

Excellent. My one remaining concern is durability (like if I stick my hand in a crack).

So I'll throw a wrench in the gears...

What's the PRIMARY use you envision for this piece?

-Will it mainly be the primary outer layer while rock climbing and cragging?
OR - Will it be the warmth layer you thrown on at the base, belays or under a shell?

How breathable do you want it? Pack size?

Micro Puffys (Nano, Atom LT, BD Access Hybrid LT etc) are all the rage these days and for good reason. They do very well at many things and are superior in the warmth to weight and packability ratio.

HOWEVER, I've found that Fleece still has its uses and is superior in some regards, depending on use.

The Nano Puffs simply WILL NOT be as durable - The lightweight shells are not abrasion resistant so if you see yourself doing a lot of "real" rock climbing where you'll be groveling against the rock now and then, fleece will still hold up better. One shoulder scum in a corner with a puffy and it could be toast. The puffs also then to be a bit more limited in their breathability vs fleece. This is why you see a push into the Nano Air or Polartec Alpha tech (breathable puffs).

I've also noticed that "comfort" wise, I prefer a fleece when the sweat level is very high. So Alpine skiing where I might really be cranking the heat (bumps, deep pow etc) I like the fleece more as it wicks the moisture to the outer layer faster - I am curious to see how the Nano Air/ Alpha stuff works in these setups.

For cool weather "real rock", I tend to prefer something like a Shoeller Softshell (e.g. BDV hoody) or a durable hard face fleece (Pata Piton Hybrid or Arcteryx Fortrez or Konseal). I'll carry an outer layer with me if the belays will be chilly (either a Nano Puff Pullover or Houdini wind shell).

While it IS a marketing video and should be taken with a grain of salt (as I'm sure there are other vids with the climbers touting the latest/greatest), this spot from Patagonia resonated with me on WHY fleece still has a purpose

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD4PMawBsIw

for puffies another side of the durability is "daily use"

if you are constantly wearing that puffy in town, around the house, outside, etc ...

- the DWR will degrade, you can try re-applying it, but sooner or later there will be enough general abrasion where it just wont hold it

- the synth can degrade, remember when you sit down in a chair youre compressing the back .. and if you keep stuffing it in your around the town day pack/suitcase, itll degrade

- wearing high fill down every day will mean youll get body oils/vapor in the down faster ... you can wash it, but these 800+ fill power down are really not meant for constant washings ... it will degrade the down

- even casual daily wear will abrade the surface near the hems, sleeves and zippers ... especially with UL fabrics ... you may get small holes, worn stitching/zippers and need to do some seam gripping

- itll get dirty with daily use and youll want to wash it more frequently ... possibly degrading the DWR and insulation a bit each time (manufacturers sometimes gives "rated for 50 washes" or so for DWR)

a well made fleece is generally much more durable ... those will take daily use and laugh right back at you

the UL puffies are great in that they save weight ... but if you want to keep the DWR and insulation in tip top shape for the important gnarly things, you probably shouldnt be wearing em everyday

;)

+1 to the durability. I have an 8 year old R2 fleece that was worn daily, pretty much from Nov - March in the PNW and it's still going pretty strong.

One other option I forgot to mention that doesn't get much press these days is the shelled micro fleece.

This is a nylon windshell lined with very lightweight "micro fleece". THE CLASSIC example is the Marmot DriClime Windshirt and the newer Ether. Rab Vapour Rise and Montane Krypton are also examples. Patagonia made a GREAT version called the Alpine Windshirt but it's been discontinued (of course).

All of these are essentially a light wind shirt lined with micro fleece lining of some sort. The outter shell tends to be a bit "loose" and tends to slide when in contact with rock vs catching and tearing like you'd find on the "tighter" shells of a NanoPuff or Atom LT. I'd say they fall in between true fleece and the puffys in terms of abrasion resistance. This is also a "go to" piece for me in fall weather - wicks better than a puffy and more wind resistant than a pure fleece.

A bit dated but still a good read:

Andy Kirpatrick on Soft Shells

The only time I wear fleeces is to the bar or to work. In the outdoor world it honestly the worst piece you can have IMO.

Heavy, doesn't pack down well, dries slow, even heavier when wet, less breathability, not as windproof. And when it is windproof it bear

The only stuff I bring out is poly pro or polyester stretch type materials and then a synthetic puff, marmot driclime material or capilene.

The patagonia R1is the only "fleece" that I consider worthwhile. Sure there might be some micros out there that are ok, but in my honest opinion fleeces are so outdated.

Mind you I'm not necessarily referring to the above "microfleece" like you find in the driclimes. But synthetic, polypro etc is the way to go unless it's a super light weight piece.

scienceguy288 wrote:Sorry, but I'm getting some mixed messages. On the one hand, you say that it would be more packable, waterproof, etc, but then go on to say that it would be overkill. Is that to say you recommend fleece? What about something like the Marmot Variant (rather than the Nanopuff)? Thanks.

What Andrew L said, except for I'm not he.

Expensive technical pieces are designed to be light, compact and perform well in the mountains for a few hours to several days here and there, but usually don't hold up well the abuse of day to day wear at crags and car camping (think campfires, cooking oil, rubbing against your climbing hardware in the pack). Which is fine if a) money is not an issue, b) you only climb on weekends here and there and c) you want to look good.

Fleece is cheap and practically indestructible. People usually just get sick of their fleece jackets and that is why they end up in thrift stores.

I have both. I have a Nano Puff, which I use mostly for long routes, but the fabric abraded first time I took it to the Black. That is why when I go cragging I just bring my $7 fleece jacket (happens to be Patagonia ha!) I got at a thrift shop.

I am really looking for a midlayer that can be used as an outer layer on cool shoulder season days or as a midlayer beneath something heavier during winter months. I already have a Northwall softshell and puffy (down) which are pretty heavy. I also have lighter base layers and some light fleece layers. However the light fleece are too light for cooler weather, but the down puffy is too heavy duty for most fall days. I am looking for something between the two that I can wear while climbing. It's now sounding like mid-weight fleece or a light softshell are more along the lines of what I'm looking for, yes?

What kind of climbing? If alpine and long routes, either Nano puff pullover or something like an R1 fleece. You can also check out Marmot Driclime - they're inexpensive to begin with and you can usually find one on sale.

Multipitch trad in the Adirondacks in the fall and hiking in the Adirondack High Peaks...

scienceguy288 wrote:Multipitch trad in the Adirondacks in the fall and hiking in the Adirondack High Peaks...

Get the Nano Puff. Some will argue for Nano Air, but I think that jacket is more suited for higher alpine in drier conditions than ADK. Nano Puff is nice because it keeps you dry in a drizzle. This is a great time of the year to do the Great Range traverse!

I'm a big fan of the Atom LT. The Nano Puff looks like it was tailored for a pear.

scienceguy288 wrote:Multipitch trad in the Adirondacks in the fall and hiking in the Adirondack High Peaks...

So I'd seriously consider some sort of "combo" setup and avoid going with a single puff piece. My main reason for this is that, IMO, primaloft puffs simply don't have the durability and breathability that you'll want for your uses. The puffs don't move the air fast enough to keep you dry from sweat. They're more for cooler, less-movement situations like camp or a belay stance. Some garments like the Atom LT and BD Access hybrid LT attempt to address this with breathable side panels but I think you need colder conditions and wind for them to be efficient.

I'd get a mid-weight fleece layer (Piton Hybrid or R1 would be my first picks) This will serve you well when moving, climbing etc. If you think you'll want more warmth, an R2 or equivalent would work too.

The Alternative to that would be a Marmot DriClime jacket or equivalent. They're a bit less bulk and cut the wind better.

These will both breath and layer under your outer shell (that I think you said you owned already). A good windshell (Houdini) or lightweight soft-shell (BD Alpine Start Hoody) will layer really well and provide lots of options for wear.

Then, if you want more warmth at belays or camp, use a lightweight Nano Puff etc. They're a bit boxy in fit because they're intended to go over your main layer.

Good reads here on the plus minus of each setup with good technical specs.

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Lastly, consider costs. The latest greatest Puffs etc can be hard to find sub $100. Fleece, DriClime etc are often found around $50. BD Alpine Start Hoody is $90 on sale right now. Good combo at half the Nano Air or similar to a Puffy

I'm thinking that perhaps something of a system might be ideal: a R2 type fleece for when I'm actually climbing and then a synthetic insulated vest to throw on top of that for the belay station. I am having some difficulty finding a 2-way zipper on a vest at my price point, so I am thinking a button one should do just as well (just unbutton the bottom button for instant "belay vest"). Thoughts?

I tried on Mountain Hardwear's Thermostatic Hooded Jacket in EMS in Lake Placid over the weekend. It's got the same amount of insulation as the Nano Puffs (60g) and it's stuffed with Mountain Hardwear's proprietor insulation, Thermal.Q Elite.

Thermal.Q Elite is "supposed" to be even warmer and more durable than "anything currently on the market to date." I'd love to see what other users think of the insulation. I have yet to talk to anyone who has used Thermal.Q Elite yet. I'd be interested to see how it compares to PrimaLoft Gold (One).

This piece is definitely a mid layer and the men's medium was spot on. Best of all, if your close to Lake Placid, you can stop in and try a few sizes on. EMS has their own mid layers as well.