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Fixe Alien (Umbrella failure)

Original Post
hrdeyo · · Greenbay, WI · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 0

So I've been looking into getting some aliens because of all the amazing things I've heard. I hadn't yet because I've been satisfied with my Metolious, BD, and even rock empire cams. I've taken whippers on all of them and though I have blown marginal placements none of them have failed.

Recently I had a partner have a new yellow Alien fail when the soldered end of one of the cam wires failed and it came un-cammed or pulled through. I didn't see the placement.

Two days ago while climbing in the Yosemite a Fixe alien (Unsure of size) failed in the same way. didn't see this placement as this happened to a group climbing next to me.

Has this happened to anyone else, and also what is the difference between the Fixe Aliens and Totem Basics?

Not trying to bash aliens, just wanting some information.

I guess both of these could have been from poor placements, I definitely didn't mean to put any false info or fear out there.

Robert Fielding · · Thousand Oaks, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 195

Hard to determine w out pics... could be user error

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492

The "soldered ends" will likely pop off any time the cam umbrellas. That won't happen as the CAUSE of a failure but rather as the result of a bad placement. They aren't weight bearing; they are only there to pull back the lobes.

Paul Deagle · · Geneseo, NY · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 330

How does the cam umbrella? I am unfamiliar with this term.

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,241
Paul Deagle wrote:How does the cam umbrella? I am unfamiliar with this term.
The lobes completely invert on cams that don't have some sort of cam stop (some sort of mechanism to keep the lobes from inverting). There's nothing "stopping" them in a placement that depends on the lobes staying in place like a nut rather than by the usual method of, well, camming. Encountering the irreversible force of a fall, they bend completely backward like an umbrella does on a windy day.
Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 9,954

Mike is right.

If you had a basic understanding of how Aliens work you'd realize that the soldiered ends of the trigger wires are only strong enough to handle the force of squeezing the trigger bar to remove the cam.

Since an Alien doesn't have cam stops, a poor placement could result in the cam inverting open in fall, thus breaking the trigger wires.

It's important to note that this is not a failure of the Alien; it's a failure of the user to place it well. Personally I find it mildly annoying that the title of the thread, given the history of Aliens, would mislead anyone to think a cam actually failed catastrophically.

If you are uncomfortable with the basic design of the Alien - the fact that they lack the added safeguard of cam stops or a continuous trigger wire that merely slides through the trigger bar freely in the event of the cam inverting - then I'd say don't get them. In the meantime, change your thread title to read "Alien trigger wire failure" instead of "Alien Failure."

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

Josh, so what you're saying is that for $20 more per cam you can get a device that lacks the added safeguard of cam stops? Sounds like a failure of design.

Geir www.ToofastTopos.com · · Tucson/DMR · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 2,751
Josh Janes wrote:Mike is right. If you had a basic understanding of how Aliens work you'd realize that the soldiered ends of the trigger wires are only strong enough to handle the force of squeezing the trigger bar to remove the cam. Since an Alien doesn't have cam stops, a poor placement could result in the cam inverting open in fall, thus breaking the trigger wires. It's important to note that this is not a failure of the Alien; it's a failure of the user to place it well. Personally I find it mildly annoying that the title of the thread, given the history of Aliens, would mislead anyone to think a cam actually failed catastrophically. If you are uncomfortable with the basic design of the Alien - the fact that they lack the added safeguard of cam stops or a continuous trigger wire that merely slides through the trigger bar freely in the event of the cam inverting - then I'd say don't get them. In the meantime, change your thread title to read "Alien trigger wire failure" instead of "Alien Failure."
+100
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
S.P.L.T. Image wrote:Josh, so what you're saying is that for $20 more per cam you can get a device that lacks the added safeguard of cam stops? Sounds like a failure of design.
the cam stops on the small metolius cams are so small that you can't count on them to work in a passive manner. the last few years there have been some problems where the cam stops on the silver and purple tcus have broken off without even being fallen on, due to manufacturing issues with the cam lobes.

i agree with josh - labeling this thread as an alien failure (as opposed to a user failure) is BS.
Locker · · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349

I find myself agreeing with Josh and Slim...

Hell, the title is the reason I opened this thread in the first place, especially since I had one of the failing DIMPLED Aliens.

It is a misleading title...

Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 9,954
S.P.L.T. Image wrote:Josh, so what you're saying is that for $20 more per cam you can get a device that lacks the added safeguard of cam stops? Sounds like a failure of design.
No.

But I will say this statement is a failure of reading comprehension.
Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

I simply can't understand this cult of Alien lovers. Back in their day, yea they were the best, but now it's outdated. I think the new BDs are gonna blow 'em away.

Josh, so then what's the $20 advantage to the lack of cam stops? At least metolius has them.

Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 9,954

SPLT,

I agree that BITD (although this was before my time) they were unbeatable primarily due to their narrow heads and flexibility. And for a long time TCU's were their only competitor, though personally I prefer four lobes to three.

Now it seems that Master Cams, Zero's, and C3's have leveled the playing field, and the new BD's look like they'll be even better.

I have and use BD Micro Camalots, C3's and TCU's, but I think the reason I like Aliens despite these other options (and I can't speak for the other cult followers out there) is that they just feel right in certain situations. Two in particular:

1) In hard, uneven rock (like at the Gunks, for example, or gritty/crystal-laden granite, for example). I think this might be because the slightly softer 6061 aluminum just seems like it'll stay put better... I fully acknowledge this might be wishful thinking/my imagination.

2) In very thin, shallow horizontals. Maybe the short trigger wires and softer alloy at work? Well, they often seem to stay put and flex more freely than other cams... Again, I fully acknowledge this might be wishful thinking/my imagination.

Having cam stops is nice, though in practice I don't think I've ever utilized them to make a passive placement or have had gear blow for lack of them.

I don't recommend Aliens as THE small cam, but I do think they are complementary to other cams out there. And of course the hybrids are unrivaled but that's a different story.

Geir www.ToofastTopos.com · · Tucson/DMR · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 2,751
Josh Janes wrote: No. But I will say this statement is a failure of reading comprehension.
Hahahahaha!!
Geir www.ToofastTopos.com · · Tucson/DMR · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 2,751
S.P.L.T. Image wrote:I simply can't understand this cult of Alien lovers. Back in their day, yea they were the best, but now it's outdated. I think the new BDs are gonna blow 'em away. Josh, so then what's the $20 advantage to the lack of cam stops? At least metolius has them.
SPLT,

It's OK if you don't like them, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. They work very well for what I do. The very flexible stems and soft cam lobes are a big plus for me, often aliens seem to bit in well where other cams feel less solid. YMMV.
Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061

TCUs were also available as FCUs (FCU=four cam units, I still have at least one yellow metolius fcu on the rack from the late 90s), but the layout of the lobes was different because of the U-stem. They were all bunched in the middle, instead of two pairs with the stem between.

The biggest benefit to Aliens for me, especially compared to Metolius, Bliss, or WC, has always been the cam angle. They just cover a bigger range, which seems to make a bigger differnce in the smaller cam sizes.

Secondary benefits were the narrow head width and the super flexy stem that gave confidence in horizontals and slanting cracks (although it also sucked in the bigger sizes, and why aliens above red or so would never make it on my rack, the head weight started making them a PITA to place overhead because they would go all noodly).Third was the softer alloy on the lobes for more "bite".

I still carry mainly tcus and C3s (which despite C3s having the stiff stem drawback, fit in places I would never get other competitors, I've had this happen repeatedly...attempt to place a different cam, head too wide, but C3 works)...most of my partners own aliens, so I end up climbing on them all the time and like them. I also own Alien hybrids (offsets), which are incredible for granite routes with pin scars. I wouldn't go on an El Cap aid route without a double set of hybrids, and have used the smaller two on a lot of free routes.

But it's very nice to have a selection, they all have their place IMO.

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125

It's funny people think cam stops on small cams as a feature. On the master cam & the older BD microcams they are no more than glorified spring stops: without them the cam won't operate, with them they are no safer.

Ah yes, the aliens are so outdated that only very recently has BD made the X4 with internal spring design (which btw, also do not have cam stops on the smaller internal spring/stacked-axle sizes). What's the big deal about internal spring besides narrower head width? The pair of lobes are closer together (if your placement only have good 2 lobes of contact you want them as close together as possible for stability). I own Totem basic cams which are both cheaper & slightly better (IMO) than the original aliens/Fixe copies. I particularly like the flexible trigger wire mesh than the rigid wire, allowing the lobe to rotate just as freely after some use (rigid trigger wire tend to get pinched by lobe deformity).

I've climbed on the X4s and they are indeed pretty sweet; I may get some in smaller sizes when available to the general public. I also have C3s & they indeed work in some placements where nothing else will, they are just not quite my workhorse cams.

camhead · · Vandalia, Appalachia · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,240
shuminW wrote:It's funny people think cam stops on small cams as a feature. On the master cam & the older BD microcams they are no more than glorified spring stops: without them the cam won't operate, with them they are no safer.
yup. I've actually sheered the cam stops on small tcu's a couple times.
Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245

This is such an old discussion. Use whatever cams you want - they all have advantages as well as disadvantages, and none of them will work if you don't know how to place gear correctly.

As far as cam stops go, I'll take the bigger range, narrow head and softer metal of Aliens over cam stops any day. Since when do you guys use small cams in passive mode anyway? Isn't that what stoppers are for? I can see using a Camalot in passive mode, but not a TCU or Mastercam. FWIW, I've broken the stops of off both of the Metolius models. Not the cams fault - they were marginal placements at best - and I wasn't counting on the cam stops holding me in the first place.

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

Josh, I agree with those advantages but I think they are largely imangined as you seem to indicate. The fact that the Aliens have that tendency to umbrella has always been the deal breaker for me and that they are more expensive it seems pointless to even consider using them.

As we all know sometimes you can't get the placement you want but you gotta go with it, without camstops the Aliens are more likely to umbrella and I don't see those other advantages overcoming that especially in light of the price. I've used almost all cams out there in a large variety of places and I always come back to my BD stuff, C3s for the little stuff. If Aliens could compete on price, add cam stops and make them look like they weren't made in a garage, not to mention that the big ones have a tendency to fold over because they are too flexible, I would say that they are great cams.

To bring it back to the OP, if FIXE had addressed these known design faults that cam wouldn't have failed. Good designs minimize the chance of user error and Aliens don't do that.

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
S.P.L.T. Image wrote:Josh, I agree with those advantages but I think they are largely imangined as you seem to indicate. The fact that the Aliens have that tendency to umbrella has always been the deal breaker for me and that they are more expensive it seems pointless to even consider using them. As we all know sometimes you can't get the placement you want but you gotta go with it, without camstops the Aliens are more likely to umbrella and I don't see those other advantages overcoming that especially in light of the price. I've used almost all cams out there in a large variety of places and I always come back to my BD stuff, C3s for the little stuff. If Aliens could compete on price, add cam stops and make them look like they weren't made in a garage, not to mention that the big ones have a tendency to fold over because they are too flexible, I would say that they are great cams. To bring it back to the OP, if FIXE had addressed these known design faults that cam wouldn't have failed. Good designs minimize the chance of user error and Aliens don't do that.
how would the cam not have failed? if it walked into an open position, falling on it would invert the lobes and it would slice out - whether it be a tcu, alien, etc.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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