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First In Line Etiquette Question, aka Early Ice Season Shenanigans
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By Nick Stayner
From Billings, MT
Oct 8, 2012
Nick Stayner near the crux. Ryan Minton photo.
Unless there's something more to these stories, the note-writer was clearly having a really bad day at best (fully psychotic at worst). I've got to admit that's one of the funniest "angry climber" manifestations I've ever seen.

Like everyone else has said, you were clearly in the right ozone. And to answer your question about when you yield, it's a case by case thing (as is damn near every other "ethics"-related climbing situation). We're all climbers, most of us "a cut above" as Kalous likes to say, and usually all seek reasonable solutions. Though I guess if everyone believed that, this forum wouldn't exist.

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By Rocky_Mtn_High
From Arvada, CO
Oct 8, 2012
Lamb's Slide
That'll show em!
That'll show em!

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By skeeter
From Lakewood CA
Oct 8, 2012
mostly unrelated post, but I took my small child to a local top-rope rock with only 1 route. we were the first ones to the parking lot and we could not go the most direct route because he was only 4 and couldn't do some of the rock hopping to get to the spot. so a group that got to the lot after us beat us there by a minute. they were cool though and let us climb on their rope. glad i haven't run into any guys like the ones that wrote that note, yet.

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By Jon Zucco
From Denver, CO
Oct 8, 2012
yaak crack Red Rock Canyon, NV
r_m_high wrote:


Amen.

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By Daniel Battin
From Green Mtn. Falls, CO
Oct 8, 2012
On Bridelveil
Nick Stayner wrote:
Unless there's something more to these stories, the note-writer was clearly having a really bad day at best

Nope these are the facts and they're undisputed.
It would be interesting to here from the guys who wrote the note. To here how they see it. I'm sure they're out there,...lurking,... somewhere.
I can sympathize with them to a point. I was shut down three times this month trying to get on this route. I (as I'm sure we all do) know the frustration that comes with unrealized plans. I just don't threaten to slash tires over it.

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By Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
Oct 8, 2012
Coffee after freezing our asses off near James Peak.
Brian Scoggins wrote:
Their only valid point was the one regarding the soul patch. Seriously folks, you owe it to your friends with soul patches to kick them in the nuts until they agree to shave that shit off.


So this is a no go?


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By Daniel Battin
From Green Mtn. Falls, CO
Oct 8, 2012
On Bridelveil
YES!!

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By Nick Stayner
From Billings, MT
Oct 8, 2012
Nick Stayner near the crux. Ryan Minton photo.
OZONE wrote:
It would be interesting to here from the guys who wrote the note. To here how they see it.


Or at least an interesting troll :)

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By Ian Stewart
Oct 8, 2012
If you're first to the climb, you're first to climb it. Plain and simple. The queue doesn't start in the parking lot. There are plenty of situations where this might seem dickish (climbing slowly, sprinting very near the climb, etc) but it doesn't sound like any of these apply here.

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By Julius Beres
From Boulder, CO
Oct 8, 2012
Rewritten
Scott McMahon wrote:
That's the standard in the flatirons it seems, with all the easy access to moderate multipitch. Then I have to spend the rest of the climb having to climb underneath their ropes because they can only manage to stay 10 feet in front of me, or because I can climb faster leading a party of three than they can with 2.


What moderate route in the Flatirons can you not just climb around a party in front of you at will? I'm passed a ton of slow parties on the Flatirons... if people are slow in front of you, climb 5 feet to the left or right and go around.

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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Oct 8, 2012
Bocan
Julius Beres wrote:
What moderate route in the Flatirons can you not just climb around a party in front of you at will? I'm passed a ton of slow parties on the Flatirons... if people are slow in front of you, climb 5 feet to the left or right and go around.


Oh I don't mind getting passed whatsover. And truthfully I know to expect that kind of stuff in the flats anyways, but it seems to typically happen where the routes tend to narrow a bit and we already are on a line. One example is on the final pitch on the 3rd flat. We were the 2nd party lined up on the belay ledge waiting to lead the next pitch. I'm literally seconds away from starting up and the party behind us decides they are going to lead right past us. Maybe he had never climbed that route before, but I ended up having to unclip his first piece and go under his rope while leading. And this was after the 1st party decided to pass us right before the ledge, and their leader then had to downclimb after getting off "route" while his partner was simuling. 15 feet and I had to go under 2 ropes by other parties that felt the need to pass, then decided to slow down.

Best analogy is the people that fly by you on the highway, get in front of you and then slow back down. I'll always defer to a faster party, but if your gonna pass keep the speed going.

But like you said...it's the flatirons. :o)

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By Kevin Craig
Oct 8, 2012
KC on Fields (medium).  Photo (c) Doug Shepherd
I'd be happy to handle it face-to-face, but didn't have the chance to talk to "Ozone." If the situation was reversed and we didn't get up early enough to be in line "first" (there was actually another party there before all of us and I didn't try to out-race them to the climb either), I would do (and have done) the gentlemanly thing, ask their intentions, and yielded the route since they got there first and unless they were unreasonably slow - which we were not. We didn't frantically gear up on the car as Trask and his buddy did specifically with the intention of snaking other climbers.

As far as training and foot racing goes, not many who know me think I'm lacking in either department.

My apologies for the angry note, but I thought it was a pretty crappy thing to do to us and the other party who was also there earlier, and it was the second time I'd been there in 4 days and still haven't gotten on the route (skunked by the rangers the first time) - and I guess I won't unless I gear up at home and sprint out of the car.

I guess I was brought up in a different time under a different ethic. Sorry to see this is where things are going. Guess I'll take up knitting.

I hope Ozone is happy that the MP community could validate him.

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By CJC
Oct 8, 2012
I like how this thread is separating the gentlemen from the selfish arrogant douchebags

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By 419
From Denver
Oct 8, 2012
JR Token
One summer day in RMNP I set out to climb the southwest corner of the Saber. My partner and I proceeded with a steady alpine stride and found ourselves comfortably making progress past Loch Vale. Then out of nowhere two older men laid claim to the trail. When they passed I feebly asked "Hey what route are you climbing?" You guessed it...

To this day I have never told anyone two fifty year old men bested me in an alpine hiking duel. They crushed the route too. They were men among boys.

Beat me to the base, the route is all yours.

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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Oct 8, 2012
Bocan
Kevin Craig wrote:
I'd be happy to handle it face-to-face, but didn't have the chance to talk to "Ozone." If the situation was reversed and we didn't get up early enough to be in line "first" (there was actually another party there before all of us and I didn't try to out-race them to the climb either), I would do (and have done) the gentlemanly thing, ask their intentions, and yielded the route since they got there first and unless they were unreasonably slow - which we were not. We didn't frantically gear up on the car as Trask and his buddy did specifically with the intention of snaking other climbers. As far as training and foot racing goes, not many who know me think I'm lacking in either department. My apologies for the angry note, but I thought it was a pretty crappy thing to do to us and the other party who was also there earlier, and it was the second time I'd been there in 4 days and still haven't gotten on the route (skunked by the rangers the first time) - and I guess I won't unless I gear up at home and sprint out of the car. I guess I was brought up in a different time under a different ethic. Sorry to see this is where things are going. Guess I'll take up knitting. I hope Ozone is happy that the MP community could validate him.



All facts aside and this isn't a personal attack, but an anonymous note threating to slash his tires? It sucks to have someone squeeze in front of you, but that respone is a bit extreme IMO. Whether ozone was wrong or right, that response isn't much of an "ethic". Verbally berating them over beers with your partner is much more amicable.

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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Oct 8, 2012
OTL
This could all be sorted out so much easier



possibly even online through reservations.gov for all routes inside parks - just like Half Dome hiking permits.

A new black market for scalpers would arise and offer dirtbags another income venue.

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By Kevin Craig
Oct 8, 2012
KC on Fields (medium).  Photo (c) Doug Shepherd
Scott McMahon wrote:
All facts aside and this isn't a personal attack, but an anonymous note threating to slash his tires? It sucks to have someone squeeze in front of you, but that respone is a bit extreme IMO. Whether ozone was wrong or right, that response isn't much of an "ethic". Verbally berating them over beers with your partner is much more amicable.


Yeah, well, that particular instant was not my best moment, I'll admit. To be fair, I didn't say "slash" there's this little valve thingy on each tire, but interesting that everyone's mind jumped to slash from flat. And in the end no harm was done.

Seems like complaining about the note to your partner over beers would be more amicable than running to MP for validation too, but I guess that's what everyone does these days. (EDIT - this is a comment on Scott's comment)

EDIT - FWIW, Ozone and I seem to have arrived at a mutually acceptable understanding via PM. Hopefully we'll meet under better circumstances in the future.

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By Brian Scoggins
From Eugene, OR
Oct 8, 2012
"My apologies for the angry note, but I thought it was a pretty crappy thing to do to us and the other party who was also there earlier, and it was the second time I'd been there in 4 days and still haven't gotten on the route (skunked by the rangers the first time) - and I guess I won't unless I gear up at home and sprint out of the car.

I guess I was brought up in a different time under a different ethic. Sorry to see this is where things are going. Guess I'll take up knitting."

Really? I was brought up in a time where threats of property damage (ever had to get towed off of Pikes Peak? It ain't cheap) over moving quickly was completely unacceptable. Different eras I guess.

You were fine until the tire-draining comment. That is, "You're a fucking tool!" rolls off most people's backs. Maybe they reflect on it and become better people for it. "You're a fucking tool and I'll let the air out of your tires!" makes you sound unbalanced, and whatever justification you may have had went out the window. They didn't block you in so you couldn't keep up. They just recognized (as you should've) that if they didn't get on the thing, fast, they wouldn't get on the thing, period. I have definitely racked up in the car so that I could get on my objective as quickly as possible and minimize the amount of time people behind me had to wait.

It sounds to me like, since you'd been snaked before, you should've been ready to rock as soon as the gate came open if for no other reason than because you'd been snaked before. Moreover, you should've taken the high road and just been better in the future, rather than letting your anger get the better of you. If you're going to criticize people for poor behavior, you might avoid threats in your criticism.

//edit to address the tire-slashing misread. Criticism still stands: letting the air out of somebody's tires in downtown Denver is funny and inconvenient. Letting the air out of somebody's tires in the mountains could cost hundreds of dollars.

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By Trask
From colorado springs, co
Oct 8, 2012
Gettin in the mood on Left Torpedo tube
I dont contribute much to this scene but since I was personally involved I would like to say that Kevin and I have since been in contact and we have kissed and made up.........I truly at times think the responses on this site are piss your pant funny but this is one that I would rather not throw gas on.... I think Kevin and I can both agree that we both wanna live in a world where morals still stand up and I have since said my peace and apologized for being inconsiderate. Lets let this one go boys ok?? Cheers Kevin

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By Trask
From colorado springs, co
Oct 8, 2012
Gettin in the mood on Left Torpedo tube
P.S. Tim you are too funny with that chin hair!!!!!!!

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By Buff Johnson
Oct 8, 2012
smiley face
At least he was going to leave the spare alone. In Laramie that shit would be on blocks with the trailer park suds'n up to warm bud light through the buck teeth in skin tight wally-world wranglers jamming to the year round xmas disco-lights on the porch with their new found rollin gold; yee friggin haw

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By matt davies
Oct 8, 2012
Kevin Craig wrote:
Yeah, well, that particular instant was not my best moment, I'll admit. To be fair, I didn't say "slash" there's this little valve thingy on each tire, but interesting that everyone's mind jumped to slash from flat. And in the end no harm was done. Seems like complaining about the note to your partner over beers would be more amicable than running to MP for validation too, but I guess that's what everyone does these days.

Kevin,
Kudos for coming out and taking responsibility for the note, usually note-leavers are pussies content to be anonymous. Kudos for using your real name in the forums. Everyone has bad days and has done regrettable things out of frustration, and no one should be judged by their worst day. I take 2 lessons learned from this :
1- It's almost ice climbing season in Canada
2- It's almost always a bad idea to leave threatening notes on cars, unless you're threatening Tits to get his ass in gear and get an early start for once.

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By Kevin Craig
Oct 8, 2012
KC on Fields (medium).  Photo (c) Doug Shepherd
Brian Scoggins wrote:
"My apologies for the angry note, but I thought it was a pretty crappy thing to do to us and the other party who was also there earlier, and it was the second time I'd been there in 4 days and still haven't gotten on the route (skunked by the rangers the first time) - and I guess I won't unless I gear up at home and sprint out of the car. I guess I was brought up in a different time under a different ethic. Sorry to see this is where things are going. Guess I'll take up knitting." Really? I was brought up in a time where threats of property damage (ever had to get towed off of Pikes Peak? It ain't cheap) over moving quickly was completely unacceptable. Different eras I guess. You were fine until the tire-draining comment. That is, "You're a fucking tool!" rolls off most people's backs. Maybe they reflect on it and become better people for it. "You're a fucking tool and I'll let the air out of your tires!" makes you sound unbalanced, and whatever justification you may have had went out the window. They didn't block you in so you couldn't keep up. They just recognized (as you should've) that if they didn't get on the thing, fast, they wouldn't get on the thing, period. I have definitely racked up in the car so that I could get on my objective as quickly as possible and minimize the amount of time people behind me had to wait. It sounds to me like, since you'd been snaked before, you should've been ready to rock as soon as the gate came open if for no other reason than because you'd been snaked before. Moreover, you should've taken the high road and just been better in the future, rather than letting your anger get the better of you. If you're going to criticize people for poor behavior, you might avoid threats in your criticism. //edit to address the tire-slashing misread. Criticism still stands: letting the air out of somebody's tires in downtown Denver is funny and inconvenient. Letting the air out of somebody's tires in the mountains could cost hundreds of dollars.


And, indeed, I didn't do it, did I? Merely pointing out that someone even less balanced than I (if that's possible :^) might be inclined to do it in the future. OK, fine, bluster, guilty as charged. Apologies.

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By thechoad
Oct 8, 2012
trask, go cover yourself with bees and jump out of a helicopter

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By Buff Johnson
Oct 8, 2012
smiley face
& don't forget the go-pro

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