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"Fall ratings" on ropes shouldn't be on outer rope packaging



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By shoo
Apr 7, 2011
Rock wars, Red River Gorge

Tom Mulholland wrote:
Not true about the core threads melting. The article actually suggests that the mantle (sheath) abrasion and melting are the theoretical failure mechanism, which seems wrong to me. However, I haven't studied this much. Do you have any real reason to believe the core threads melt? Or is this just a guess. Seems a lot more reasonable to assume that a few core threads break in extreme falls, creating weak spots that propagate across the core during successive falls.


Ah, sorry, you're right. Brain malfunction. In that case, they don't provide any implied theoretical argument as to how fall rating may improve durability, and so it does not conflict with my thesis.

I don't personally know of sources for this. Anyone?


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By Doug Hemken
Administrator
Apr 7, 2011
photo by Burt Lindquist

If your argument is that many climbers misunderstand fall ratings, that is an argument for better educating climbers.

shoo wrote:
The test also implies that ropes with higher fall ratings should be more durable.


That statement just begs to be answered with data.

shoo wrote:
To increase the number of falls held, while holding materials and construction constant, one would add more core strands.


You are thinking one-factor-at-a-time. That would be bad experimental design in the presence of interactions among factors. If one is focused solely on fall ratings, he will not be a very good climbing consumer.


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By Tom Mulholland
From #1 Cheese Producing State!
Apr 8, 2011
Whiskey-a-Go-Go

I'd actually be interested in running some rope failure analysis tests, trying to observe the failure in the rope after each "fall." I'd hypothesize that some core threads break after each serious fall, and that failure propagates through during successive falls. Do you think the UIAA would sponsor some research?


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By Dana Bartlett
From CT
Apr 8, 2011

Tom,

You could try and contact Jeff Lea. He was (I'm pretty sure) at one time the US representative to the UIAA. Should be easy to find using goggle.


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By shoo
Apr 8, 2011
Rock wars, Red River Gorge

Tom Mulholland wrote:
I'd actually be interested in running some rope failure analysis tests, trying to observe the failure in the rope after each "fall." I'd hypothesize that some core threads break after each serious fall, and that failure propagates through during successive falls. Do you think the UIAA would sponsor some research?


I would be very interested to see what happens if the drops are more spaced out in time. I suspect that, if given enough time, we would see enormous numbers of falls before breakage.


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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Apr 8, 2011

I think you're going to need to address "recovery time" if you're pursuing that hypothesis. I'd assert that given enough time between drops, with the rope unloaded during the "recovery", you could likely achieve many more drops than the UIAA tests.

Part of the process leading to a failure is that the energy absorption properties of the rope are exhausted leading to higher peak forces...i.e. the "stretch" is gone. I doubt that you're getting a cumulative effect from some core strands breaking on successive drops (perhaps on the last drop or two, but not at a matter of course througout the 7-12 drops).


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By Tom Mulholland
From #1 Cheese Producing State!
Apr 8, 2011
Whiskey-a-Go-Go

Will and Shoo,

See my other posts about "recovery" time and polymer elasticity. I contest that there is actually no "recovery" effect or loss of elasticity during sequential drops. If you can prove otherwise, I'd be very interested.


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By shoo
Apr 8, 2011
Rock wars, Red River Gorge

Tom Mulholland wrote:
Will and Shoo, See my other posts about "recovery" time and polymer elasticity. I contest that there is actually no "recovery" effect or loss of elasticity during sequential drops. If you can prove otherwise, I'd be very interested.


This doesn't show any data to prove it, but it does present a statistical model suggesting that ropes do, in fact, lose and recover elasticity based on the timing of a series of impacts.

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jst.62/pdf

Edit: I take that back. There is data in there suggesting that this is true.


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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Apr 8, 2011
OTL

Tom Mulholland wrote:
Will and Shoo, See my other posts about "recovery" time and polymer elasticity. I contest that there is actually no "recovery" effect or loss of elasticity during sequential drops. If you can prove otherwise, I'd be very interested.


Haven't you ever taken the stretch out of a toprope before starting when the crux is near the ground? We're not talking about a solid piece of plastic.
But I could be way off - its Friday and I had a late night.


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By Tom Mulholland
From #1 Cheese Producing State!
Apr 8, 2011
Whiskey-a-Go-Go

shoo wrote:
This doesn't show any data to prove it, but it does present a statistical model suggesting that ropes do, in fact, lose and recover elasticity based on the timing of a series of impacts. onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jst.62/pdf Edit: I take that back. There is data in there suggesting that this is true.


Shoo -

Great find. Very interesting article. However, the article does not actually present any data, merely theoretical models and error calculations. However, it does reference other articles [4,5] that provide experimental data, though I haven't looked at them yet.

The article shows that ropes undergo both elastic and plastic deformation, which makes sense considering rope stiffening. However, the models show the elastic deformation is completely recovered (which is also true by definition), and the plastic deformation remains (thus the stiffening). It does not, however, suggest that the timing of the tests affects the elastic recovery, which was your point in your original post.

In fact, because of the time scale of the loading (a fall), and the relatively long relaxation time of polymers at room temperature, one can assume that all the elastic deformation is fully recovered when the weight is promptly removed. In fact, if the relaxation time of nylon were short, you would effectively lengthen your rope every time you hung on it due to a phenomenon called creep. You are right that the plastic deformation is not recovered, however, there is still no evidence to support that the rapid succession of the tests affects the elastic recovery of the rope.

It could be possible that the rapid succession of the tests could cause heating in the core, though this definitely depends on how 'rapid' the cycles are. This would in turn affect the elasticity and rope properties slightly. However, I don't know if this would be significant, and it would be extremely hard to measure.


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By jcurl
Apr 8, 2011

There are some data for recovery time included in the following work that are somewhat relevant. The authors performed sets of two drop tests each on sections of the same type of rope. They noted the increase in peak force with the second drop, indicative of permanent damage, even with the relatively low initial peak load of about 3 kN. They allowed a short time interval (5+5 minutes) between drops for one set of tests, and longer time periods (up to a couple of days) for two other sets. They found that longer rest periods between drops had no effect on the increase in impact force.

The engineering of sport 6, Volume 1


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By chriss
From Sandy, UT
Apr 8, 2011

mattm wrote:
The # of falls is a relevant statistic to have on a label. It's just that most climbers won't care or will misinterpret what the stats really mean. # of falls held is a good second indicator behind impact force on the ropes ability to provide a soft catch. Highly relevant to climbers with marginal gear and/or heavy bodies. If someone buys a rope with more falls held thinking it will "last longer" or be more "Safe" they do so mistakenly but with no "risk" to themselves or others. The rope will still hold falls just fine. An explantation of HOw the numbers are relevant to rope performance and why that matters would be a welcome ADDITION to rope tags. They should also quote % sheath thickness on each tag. They should REMOVE the thickness measurement as it has far too much +/-. 0.3mm is the allowable variation. More emphasis on weight per meter. Much better indicator. The 55kg double rope weight is completely legit. You just need to know the why's and how's of the process. Doubles need to hold 1 UIAA 80kg drop test. 1 fall is a bit challenging stats wise so they came up with another method to test. The DAV figured out that 5 falls with 55kg is the same as one with 80kg. See below for the benefits of this. From ST - "to the effect that the UIAA standards require a 'single' rope to hold at least 5 test drops before breaking; and they require a HALF rope to hold at least ONE (80kg) drop in the same test, because it typically holds an entire fall on its own in double-rope climbing, when the second-last piece is some distance below the last one. Now here's the point: one is an awkward number because if the rope survives one drop but breaks on the second one, it could be that it BARELY held ONE, or it could be that it NEARLY held TWO, or anything in between. It would be nice to know a little more, since conditions, age, or manufacturing irregularities could push the result over the line at either end, particularly below the one-drop end. So the UIAA looked for a drop-weight that would abuse the rope the same amount in 5 drops as the 80kg would abuse it in ONE. That turned out to be about 55kg. Now the testers can drop away, and have more data to compare between different ropes or different chunks of the same rope: if a particular rope never breaks on the 4th drop, and sometimes makes it to 7 or 8, they can say it's definitely a solid half-rope. But if it sometimes breaks on the 3rd or 4th drop, they may eye it suspiciously, and re-rate it as a twin or send it back to the lab for beefing up."



Curious as to where some of this information came from?

If I remember correctly, UIAA changed all the rope testing in the early 70s. Earlier fall testing was in 2 categories, single ropes and double ropes. Both only had to hold 1 fall to pass. Singles with 80 kg and Doubles with 40 kg.
After they revamped the categories, all ropes had to survive 5 falls. Singles with 80 kg and Half ropes with 55 kg. Twin rope testing came a little later.
I was under the impression the test mass was changed so both types of rope would have a similar strain. Single ropes were typically 11 mm and Doubles 9 mm. Given the cross sectional area of each, 55 kg is more appropriate for the test.


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By mattm
From TX
Apr 8, 2011
Grande Grotto

chriss wrote:
Curious as to where some of this information came from? If I remember correctly, UIAA changed all the rope testing in the early 70s. Earlier fall testing was in 2 categories, single ropes and double ropes. Both only had to hold 1 fall to pass. Singles with 80 kg and Doubles with 40 kg. After they revamped the categories, all ropes had to survive 5 falls. Singles with 80 kg and Half ropes with 55 kg. Twin rope testing came a little later. I was under the impression the test mass was changed so both types of rope would have a similar strain. Single ropes were typically 11 mm and Doubles 9 mm. Given the cross sectional area of each, 55 kg is more appropriate for the test.


A thread over on ST has this hashed out 10 times over. Another post on there had this. I've seen this explanation quoted several times from different people I respect... not to mention a UIAA safety president.

"In answer to the oft repeated question:" Why do they test half ropes singly with only 55kg", I was the American delegate (of the AAC) on the UIAA Safety Commission when the Half Rope Standard was put in place. Tests done at the time by Pit Schubert of the DAV (German Alpine Club) showed that any half rope that would withstand 5 UIAA test falls with a 55 kg test mass would also withstand one UIAA test fall with the 80kg mass. The argument presented to the members of the Commission at the time was that it would be impossible to get the lighter ropes which climbers (and guides ) wanted, to pass a harsher test, and that the real goal was to insure that a half rope would sustain at least one of the worst imaginable falls in the field, that being the fall represented by the UIAA single rope test. The repeated falls caught with the 55kg mass were accepted as the minimum repeatable test standard to insure this desired result. Over the approx 20 years that we've had the half rope standard , the Standard has proved to be high enough. (before the UIAA Standard was approved, people just climbed on half ropes without UIAA approval, assuming that both ropes would never be cut at the same time in the same fall, which has proved to be true in practice).
I accept that this reason may seem less than scientific to many. It was based on many tests carried out by the different certified UIAA test labs at the time, and as I remember was passed in near, if not total, unanimity by the voting members of the Commission, National delegates and Rope Manufacturers alike. There is one thing that encourages me at present as to the wisdom of this decision at the time-- rope manufacturing has made huge progress over the past 20 years, and this test still seems to hold up. Modern half ropes are much better than the ones I first used in France and Great Britain in the 70's."


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