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Dec 6, 2013
the schmuck wrote:
Well, this is from Tom: "Can you weight the rope? Typically if you weight the rope you are supposed to return to the ground, although it has become less common." And then there is this: "Hook hanging OK? Generally only on real steep terrain (reference pic above). Typically, bolts get drilled from stances in NC." So, two responses from two different locals say that the style is hooks only on "real steep terrain," ie. overhanging, and if you weigh the rope, you return to the ground. all I am saing is that if one is absolutist, then it makes sense to be absolutely absolutist. I am not arguing about the validity of style...I've done great and terrible routes bolted ground up and top down. I'm just a little miffed by the arbitrary nature and inconsistent individual understanding of the style espoused.


I haven't heard of coming down on an FA if you weight the rope. That does seem arbitrary unless you're going for a free ascent.

The drilling from a stance thing I addressed in my last post.

It's not arbitrary, but it does vary slightly from person to person. There is an overarching theme that you would understand if you lived and climbed here for years. That's why you talk to local veteran climbers before you put up a route in an area you aren't familiar with.

Of course I'm completely talking out of my ass because I've never even established a route anywhere. :)
David Barbour
From Denver
Joined Apr 4, 2011
231 points
Dec 6, 2013
Pano of Choas in the P2 crux. Undercling-high-step...
the schmuck wrote:
Well, this is from Tom: "Can you weight the rope? Typically if you weight the rope you are supposed to return to the ground, although it has become less common." And then there is this: "Hook hanging OK? Generally only on real steep terrain (reference pic above). Typically, bolts get drilled from stances in NC." So, two responses from two different locals say that the style is hooks only on "real steep terrain," ie. overhanging, and if you weigh the rope, you return to the ground. all I am saing is that if one is absolutist, then it makes sense to be absolutely absolutist. I am not arguing about the validity of style...I've done great and terrible routes bolted ground up and top down. I'm just a little miffed by the arbitrary nature and inconsistent individual understanding of the style espoused.


Now your just cherry picking quotes from Ben or me to fit your agenda. Look what I said about hooking. It is acceptable. I think David's response is even better. Why hook when you don't have in order to avoid potentially breaking holds. My response about weighting the rope says that it is accepted. I just know some history of some older routes where the leader would come down after placing the bolt. Many of the harder routes today are being done rope solo. I would not expect the person rope soloing to come down as all of their bolts will have been placed on lead, even if they hung in between placements. Don't confuse ground-up with ground-up onsight.
TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Joined Jun 2, 2009
2,646 points
Dec 6, 2013
Fair enough, and I do respect the weight of local opinions. I grasp and agree with local standards regarding sport bolting, or no bolts, or just no bolts near protectable features, even bolting by committee. I just find arguments about the technique of how a bolt is placed, if placed at all, a little odd. the schmuck
From Albuquerque, NM
Joined Feb 6, 2012
134 points
Administrator
Dec 7, 2013
El Chorro
Anyone who finds this discussion odd just needs to do a bit of research. Even a quick read of the Shull-Lambert guide will provide a LOT of insight into the whole situation.

You wouldn't show up to a town hall meeting in another state without reading up on the issues first... Would you?
Ryan Williams
From London (sort of)
Joined May 10, 2009
1,468 points
Dec 8, 2013
1st trad lead - Northern Pillar at the Gunks
Mike Reardon wrote:
That said, I never climbed 'Lucky Charms' until it was retro bolted and I gladly clipped every bolt along the way.


I'm just curious. The old Kelly book lists Lucky Charms as a 11d/12a R/X and "not recommended". Does anyone know the style of the retro bolt?
Mark O'Neal
From Nicholson, GA
Joined Oct 5, 2009
877 points
Dec 8, 2013
Wait, the FA is the same guy who recently "challenged' people to repeat his enchainment of a bunch of 5.4s in the gorge? Dunno if he should be poking holes in the rock just yet. At the very least he could have asked around the boards or the crags first. Seems these days if you and your partner haven't done it then: it must be an FA!!!! fame and fortune await! The bolt first ask questions later approach is truly a fascinating display of clueless disrespect. Abe Frohman
From Chicago , IL
Joined Nov 17, 2013
0 points
Dec 8, 2013
Myself placing a a blue/yellow offset MC to protec...
Abe Frohman wrote:


ya same guy...totally forgot about that. He is enthusiastic that's for sure!
rock_fencer
From Columbia, SC
Joined Dec 20, 2009
253 points
Dec 23, 2013
Caught Up In The Air- photo by Thomas Kelley
thus sayeth the long lost 11th commandment
thus sayeth the long lost 11th commandment
Sean Cobourn
From Gramling, SC
Joined Mar 13, 2007
2,715 points
Dec 25, 2013
But Sean says no problem with 60 foot bolt laddders out blank roofs, boy thats going to open up a lot of new routes for me! Hell, if I use Doc Bayne's tactic of drilling bat hook holes like on Long Strange Trip to connect blank faces, and use Jeep Gaskin's tactic of atop down preview like he did on Spent Brass my options are endless! shannon stegg
Joined Jan 1, 2013
8 points
Dec 25, 2013
shannon stegg wrote:
But Sean says no problem with 60 foot bolt laddders out blank roofs, boy thats going to open up a lot of new routes for me! Hell, if I use Doc Bayne's tactic of drilling bat hook holes like on Long Strange Trip to connect blank faces, and use Jeep Gaskin's tactic of atop down preview like he did on Spent Brass my options are endless!


...Says the most prominent ''Valley Christian'' (VC - as 007 already pointed out).

Why such animosity towards everyone?
nbrown
From western NC
Joined Nov 6, 2007
5,152 points
Dec 26, 2013
Well, I am proud of you, atleast you have a large enough sack to go by your name. So I will ask you again how does it feel to be on the wrong side of history about New Route Comittee's? Oh' my animosity, that might come from the fact that one of your namless buddies you defend chopped a bolt on my direct finish to Groover, the last of four. It was placed on lead! I took a friend up it and he could not see the fourth bolt. After trying to convince my buddy there was another bolt, he left a biner and lowered back to the belay. We finished Groover by the original line and I rapped the direct finish to find it chopped. They did not even patch it! Never in my wildest dreams, and believe me I have some wild dreams, did I figure you crazy people would sabotage a climb with the intent to harm me or someone else! So really Nathan if you are that bored, please go back to power drilling at Linville you are no help with girlish comments. shannon stegg
Joined Jan 1, 2013
8 points
Dec 26, 2013
Meme guy
I see the usual suspects are back at it... Meme Guy
From Land of Runout Slab
Joined Sep 23, 2013
340 points
Dec 26, 2013
Meme, what am I suspected of? Telling the truth! Funny how you elitist always come up with some snide comment rather than addressing my statements. Just another girlish comment by a faceless poser. shannon stegg
Joined Jan 1, 2013
8 points
Dec 26, 2013
Caught Up In The Air- photo by Thomas Kelley
Oh good Lord. My picture was obviously a joke to anyone with half a brain. Now Mr. Perfect bashes Doc (RIP) and Jeep. WTF? Quit living in the past and seek counseling. Please. Sean Cobourn
From Gramling, SC
Joined Mar 13, 2007
2,715 points
Dec 26, 2013
Meme guy
shannon stegg wrote:
Meme, what am I suspected of? Telling the truth! Funny how you elitist always come up with some snide comment rather than addressing my statements. Just another girlish comment by a faceless poser.



It's a fucking expression man
It's a fucking expression man
Meme Guy
From Land of Runout Slab
Joined Sep 23, 2013
340 points
Dec 26, 2013
Pano of Choas in the P2 crux. Undercling-high-step...
shannon stegg wrote:
Meme, what am I suspected of? Telling the truth! Funny how you elitist always come up with some snide comment rather than addressing my statements. Just another girlish comment by a faceless poser.


Speaking of addressing comments, what was that answer about Have an Not Need and Laurel Robbins that about four people had to ask you multiple times? My guess is Eddie and Rich already hashed it out and you were just playing everyone. Punk'd!

The person that ends up at the bottom of the pile is the one that carries on ancient grudges.
TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Joined Jun 2, 2009
2,646 points
Dec 27, 2013
1st trad lead - Northern Pillar at the Gunks
^^^
This may provide some historical perspective
rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum...
mountainproject.com/v/laurel-k...
Mark O'Neal
From Nicholson, GA
Joined Oct 5, 2009
877 points
Dec 30, 2013
Pano of Choas in the P2 crux. Undercling-high-step...
Killis, do my posts in the Stone Mtn. thread now make sense? I wasn't just trying to hate to hate. Most people want to respect Shannon without knowing the history of his behavior publicly on the forums. You can include me in that group. He has put up many badass routes in the SE. His ice slide show was one of the coolest presentations I have seen. Despite this, I can't support his agenda of publicly defaming the CCC, anyone from NC, or anyone that he feels is below his style. To err is human, but the amount of good work the aforementioned groups do is above any of the petty squabbles that are brought up. Honestly, he would be idolized if he just stuck to telling cool stories, beta for wild routes, and his wicked un-tamed career as a climber. Instead, I think we will just continue to get Krusty the Curmudgeon. I hope that I am wrong. TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Joined Jun 2, 2009
2,646 points
Dec 30, 2013
Who makes the best rice?
In Shannon's defense, his rants do sometimes come off as short sighted and gruff via the web. But, to hear the same tirades over beer and campfire is not only entertaining and historically interesting, it also comes off much more light hearted. Often, these debates deteriorate into bleary-eyed, tall tales on everyone's behalf....big falls, epic bails, runouts overcome, etc. Any of these guys and Shannon could get together and have a good time on or off the rock even if the impasse remains. Although not unimaginable, I have yet to see Shannon have an unbearable problem with anyone face to face. His passion for igniting controversy concerning perceived wrongs at the hands of the 'NC elite' is hugely overshadowed by his ongoing passion for putting up new routes and the good times that ensue before and after. I imagine that he has spent more time on the rock, in WNC, than any other person currently alive, maybe ever. He really enjoys sharing WNC (and the rest of the SE) with all sorts of people....beginners to hard-folk.

We all have our shortcomings, but it certainly appears that many of us find these debates (online and in real life) stimulating. This is evidenced by the length of these threads, the length and history of these debates, and the loudness in the cool, dark evenings in backwoods Jackson County. I think it's good to have these discussions, even if there is no solution or consensus. If not simply for the entertainment, to keep the mind stimulated on ethics, best practices, land/crag management, bolting, etc.

Like it or not, there is a coming new wave of gym-bred, bolt-happy, ethics-confused, lazier-than-yesterday climbers/developers. In essence, both sides of this argument want the same thing...a respectable, stylish future for one of the world's greatest climbing venues...Western NC, the greater Carolinas, and the SE in general. Whether Stegg and others can work it out or not on some of the LK squabbles, the greater good would be to focus on the future that we are all staring down.

Pirate's Cove top out...Fall 2010.
Pirate's Cove top out...Fall 2010.
UncleBen
From The Briar Patch
Joined Jan 12, 2007
1,534 points
Jan 1, 2014
BHMBen wrote:
Like it or not, there is a coming new wave of gym-bred, bolt-happy, ethics-confused, lazier-than-yesterday climbers/developers.


They're not coming...they're here.

I blame indoor climbing and 5.9 sport routes for the current state of things. But...there's no goin back now. It's only gonna get worse. It really is a shame.
Paul Barnes
From Gainesville, Georgia
Joined Nov 30, 2007
27 points
Jan 2, 2014
me
VaGenius wrote:
When we who are in the know bitch and moan rather then mentor and teach, we throw in the towel on the solution. We can change the future by having input with the next generations. Anyone think of that?

uhhh...yes??? What planet are you on???
5.samadhi
Joined Jul 20, 2013
27 points
Jan 2, 2014
Pano of Choas in the P2 crux. Undercling-high-step...
VaGenius wrote:
When we who are in the know bitch and moan rather then mentor and teach, we throw in the towel on the solution. We can change the future by having input with the next generations. Anyone think of that?


I agree. There is a lesson to be learned/taught by erasing the route in discussion. The nice thing from my stand point about this influx of climbers is that they aren't jumping into trad (with a few exceptions). The climbers that need to worry are the boulders and sport climbers since they are the closest to entry level as possible. This is another reason why NC locals want to keep things the way they are. Call it exclusive, elitist, or whatever, but really all we are saying is just that you have to put some effort into it. We aren't saying that "you" can't climb here, just learn the skills and these routes that seem so far fetched will one day become a reality. I definitely got bent out of shape the first time I climbed Yardarm at Stone when I was new to trad, but now it seems so far away even though it was only ~6 years ago.
TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Joined Jun 2, 2009
2,646 points
Jan 3, 2014
Pano of Choas in the P2 crux. Undercling-high-step...
VaGenius wrote:
Hey Tom, random question-did you climb in tuolomne this year? Oh, and 5.samadhi, fail. Thank you for playing. Or not.


Never climbed in Yosemite. I hate crowds. I know I should one day, but I would rather hit more remote areas first. Why?
TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Joined Jun 2, 2009
2,646 points
Jan 3, 2014
the man was smart
TomCaldwell wrote:
Never climbed in Yosemite. I hate crowds. I know I should one day, but I would rather hit more remote areas first. Why?


yeahhhhhhh, hate to break it to you Tom but your perception of the crowded west is dead wrong. you should try it someday, unwrap yourself from the NC ethics thing. Maybe Killis can give you a tour and you two can bitch about how all the rock has been ruined by unethical sportos and people who rap in to bolt.

better yet a slide show tour around the country educating climbers even younger than you two are on how things should be(from the perspective of BITD)
T Roper
From VA,NM,UT,CT,MA
Joined Mar 31, 2006
1,057 points
Jan 3, 2014
Pano of Choas in the P2 crux. Undercling-high-step...
MJMobes wrote:
yeahhhhhhh, hate to break it to you Tom but your perception of the crowded west is dead wrong. you should try it someday, unwrap yourself from the NC ethics thing. Maybe Killis can give you a tour and you two can bitch about how all the rock has been ruined by unethical sportos and people who rap in to bolt. better yet a slide show tour around the country educating climbers even younger than you two are on how things should be(from the perspective of BITD)


I do go out west. Look at my profile before you make assumptions about where I have been. I've been to JTree, Tahquitz, and Red Rocks a bunch of times. Mainly because my brothers live in San Diego, so it is convenient. All of those places are quite busy. I have just heard too many stories about tourists and congo lines in Yosemite. Or people being turned away from camping. I am not against Yosemite, logistically it is more difficult for me and like I said I don't enjoy crowds. It wasn't a knock on the place, but merely a factual statement. It is crowded, why have they been talking about permit systems there... I am all for sport climbing and rap-bolting at cliff's where this is the norm or acceptable. It is not acceptable in most cases in NC, merely because history dictates that, not because I say so. If you knew anything about me you'd know that I am more of a moderate on the subject. But keep taking your uneducated jabs at me.
TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Joined Jun 2, 2009
2,646 points


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