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By David Barbour
From Denver
Dec 6, 2013
the schmuck wrote:
Well, this is from Tom: "Can you weight the rope? Typically if you weight the rope you are supposed to return to the ground, although it has become less common." And then there is this: "Hook hanging OK? Generally only on real steep terrain (reference pic above). Typically, bolts get drilled from stances in NC." So, two responses from two different locals say that the style is hooks only on "real steep terrain," ie. overhanging, and if you weigh the rope, you return to the ground. all I am saing is that if one is absolutist, then it makes sense to be absolutely absolutist. I am not arguing about the validity of style...I've done great and terrible routes bolted ground up and top down. I'm just a little miffed by the arbitrary nature and inconsistent individual understanding of the style espoused.


I haven't heard of coming down on an FA if you weight the rope. That does seem arbitrary unless you're going for a free ascent.

The drilling from a stance thing I addressed in my last post.

It's not arbitrary, but it does vary slightly from person to person. There is an overarching theme that you would understand if you lived and climbed here for years. That's why you talk to local veteran climbers before you put up a route in an area you aren't familiar with.

Of course I'm completely talking out of my ass because I've never even established a route anywhere. :)

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By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Dec 6, 2013
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credi...
the schmuck wrote:
Well, this is from Tom: "Can you weight the rope? Typically if you weight the rope you are supposed to return to the ground, although it has become less common." And then there is this: "Hook hanging OK? Generally only on real steep terrain (reference pic above). Typically, bolts get drilled from stances in NC." So, two responses from two different locals say that the style is hooks only on "real steep terrain," ie. overhanging, and if you weigh the rope, you return to the ground. all I am saing is that if one is absolutist, then it makes sense to be absolutely absolutist. I am not arguing about the validity of style...I've done great and terrible routes bolted ground up and top down. I'm just a little miffed by the arbitrary nature and inconsistent individual understanding of the style espoused.


Now your just cherry picking quotes from Ben or me to fit your agenda. Look what I said about hooking. It is acceptable. I think David's response is even better. Why hook when you don't have in order to avoid potentially breaking holds. My response about weighting the rope says that it is accepted. I just know some history of some older routes where the leader would come down after placing the bolt. Many of the harder routes today are being done rope solo. I would not expect the person rope soloing to come down as all of their bolts will have been placed on lead, even if they hung in between placements. Don't confuse ground-up with ground-up onsight.

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By the schmuck
From Albuquerque, NM
Dec 6, 2013
Fair enough, and I do respect the weight of local opinions. I grasp and agree with local standards regarding sport bolting, or no bolts, or just no bolts near protectable features, even bolting by committee. I just find arguments about the technique of how a bolt is placed, if placed at all, a little odd.

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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 7, 2013
El Chorro
Anyone who finds this discussion odd just needs to do a bit of research. Even a quick read of the Shull-Lambert guide will provide a LOT of insight into the whole situation.

You wouldn't show up to a town hall meeting in another state without reading up on the issues first... Would you?

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By Stone Nude
Dec 7, 2013
When dumb people have disposable income, hilarity ...
TomCaldwell wrote:
Even if the route has the same nature as it's surroundings, it is still not okay. Rap-bolting artificial runouts or bold climbing just to fit in is even more lame. This reminds me of the Johns Rock incident a few years ago. Someone bolted right over an existing line only because their ego made them not want to ask anyone or share their info prior to adding the route. NC isn't climbed out, but it really helps to ask around before putting drill to rock.


I really agree with this. Fixing ropes for contrived, head pointed "danger sprad" lines in my neck of the woods puzzles me to no end. It's almost as if a tacit acceptance of one's inability to steel one's self for the ground-up FA experience, which can be quite a stiff drink, and when having to choose between close bolting to keep the nerves from fraying on lead and running it out and taking chances, the option chosen is....TRing to mimic a line with some huevos, but with endless rehearsal for the FA party.

The idea of a precedent being set that "you better fix a line on that route and TR it for two years before you lead it, dude-huge run outs put in top down on insecure climbing so you know those guys are p, like, the hard man type of rap bolters..." makes my head spin.

This thread isn't full of name calling and hatefest-age, there's discussion going on that allows many sides to an issue to be looked at. This is a really good thing and what the site does best, however rarely. I'm curious, from my perspective, if this route was a retrobolt job (lucky charms, I think?)-why is there any discussion necessary on the fate of the route? That's a violation/chop/problem solved scenario, to my mind.

Keep the discussion going, and respect tradition. NC is where I formed my ideas about what climbing should be, could be, and most of the time is, at least in Carolina. Respect and a tip of the hat from an expatriate Linville addict.

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By Mark O'Neal
From Nicholson, GA
Dec 8, 2013
1st trad lead - Northern Pillar at the Gunks
Mike Reardon wrote:
That said, I never climbed 'Lucky Charms' until it was retro bolted and I gladly clipped every bolt along the way.


I'm just curious. The old Kelly book lists Lucky Charms as a 11d/12a R/X and "not recommended". Does anyone know the style of the retro bolt?

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By Abe Frohman
From Chicago , IL
Dec 8, 2013
Wait, the FA is the same guy who recently "challenged' people to repeat his enchainment of a bunch of 5.4s in the gorge? Dunno if he should be poking holes in the rock just yet. At the very least he could have asked around the boards or the crags first. Seems these days if you and your partner haven't done it then: it must be an FA!!!! fame and fortune await! The bolt first ask questions later approach is truly a fascinating display of clueless disrespect.

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By rock_fencer
From Columbia, SC
Dec 8, 2013
Myself placing a a blue/yellow offset MC to protec...
Abe Frohman wrote:


ya same guy...totally forgot about that. He is enthusiastic that's for sure!

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By Sean Cobourn
From Gramling, SC
Dec 23, 2013
Caught Up In The Air- photo by Thomas Kelley
thus sayeth the long lost 11th commandment
thus sayeth the long lost 11th commandment

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By shannon stegg
Dec 25, 2013
But Sean says no problem with 60 foot bolt laddders out blank roofs, boy thats going to open up a lot of new routes for me! Hell, if I use Doc Bayne's tactic of drilling bat hook holes like on Long Strange Trip to connect blank faces, and use Jeep Gaskin's tactic of atop down preview like he did on Spent Brass my options are endless!

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By nbrown
From western NC
Dec 25, 2013
Top of Shortoff with the Bonsai
shannon stegg wrote:
But Sean says no problem with 60 foot bolt laddders out blank roofs, boy thats going to open up a lot of new routes for me! Hell, if I use Doc Bayne's tactic of drilling bat hook holes like on Long Strange Trip to connect blank faces, and use Jeep Gaskin's tactic of atop down preview like he did on Spent Brass my options are endless!


...Says the most prominent ''Valley Christian'' (VC - as 007 already pointed out).

Why such animosity towards everyone?

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By shannon stegg
Dec 26, 2013
Well, I am proud of you, atleast you have a large enough sack to go by your name. So I will ask you again how does it feel to be on the wrong side of history about New Route Comittee's? Oh' my animosity, that might come from the fact that one of your namless buddies you defend chopped a bolt on my direct finish to Groover, the last of four. It was placed on lead! I took a friend up it and he could not see the fourth bolt. After trying to convince my buddy there was another bolt, he left a biner and lowered back to the belay. We finished Groover by the original line and I rapped the direct finish to find it chopped. They did not even patch it! Never in my wildest dreams, and believe me I have some wild dreams, did I figure you crazy people would sabotage a climb with the intent to harm me or someone else! So really Nathan if you are that bored, please go back to power drilling at Linville you are no help with girlish comments.

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By Meme Guy
From Land of Runout Slab
Dec 26, 2013
Meme guy
I see the usual suspects are back at it...

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By shannon stegg
Dec 26, 2013
Meme, what am I suspected of? Telling the truth! Funny how you elitist always come up with some snide comment rather than addressing my statements. Just another girlish comment by a faceless poser.

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By Sean Cobourn
From Gramling, SC
Dec 26, 2013
Caught Up In The Air- photo by Thomas Kelley
Oh good Lord. My picture was obviously a joke to anyone with half a brain. Now Mr. Perfect bashes Doc (RIP) and Jeep. WTF? Quit living in the past and seek counseling. Please.

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By Meme Guy
From Land of Runout Slab
Dec 26, 2013
Meme guy
shannon stegg wrote:
Meme, what am I suspected of? Telling the truth! Funny how you elitist always come up with some snide comment rather than addressing my statements. Just another girlish comment by a faceless poser.



It's a fucking expression man
It's a fucking expression man

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By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Dec 26, 2013
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credi...
shannon stegg wrote:
Meme, what am I suspected of? Telling the truth! Funny how you elitist always come up with some snide comment rather than addressing my statements. Just another girlish comment by a faceless poser.


Speaking of addressing comments, what was that answer about Have an Not Need and Laurel Robbins that about four people had to ask you multiple times? My guess is Eddie and Rich already hashed it out and you were just playing everyone. Punk'd!

The person that ends up at the bottom of the pile is the one that carries on ancient grudges.

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By Stone Nude
Dec 26, 2013
When dumb people have disposable income, hilarity ...
TomCaldwell wrote:
Speaking of addressing comments, what was that answer about Have an Not Need and Laurel Robbins that about four people had to ask you multiple times?


I was wondering about this myself. What's the story, SS? I don't know you from Adam, but it definitely seems like you're a lot more comfortable casting aspersions than getting a dialogue about solutions going. But I'll bite, let's play along.

Are you sure who chopped the Groover bolt or are you taking educated guesses? Have you gone back and replaced the bolt or are you more comfortable having something worth squabbling about on the webs?

I know that sounds like baiting, and it is. I challenge you to find a positive solution to any one of the gripes that you've posted on here, resolve it, and feel better.

Are you up for it?

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By Mark O'Neal
From Nicholson, GA
Dec 27, 2013
1st trad lead - Northern Pillar at the Gunks
^^^
This may provide some historical perspective
rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum...
mountainproject.com/v/laurel-k...

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By Stone Nude
Dec 28, 2013
When dumb people have disposable income, hilarity ...
Wow. I just took a few minutes to read up on some of the Laurel history and I'm kind of stunned.

Shannon, you seem perma-pissed. I'd wager a sixer of microbrew that you're not interested in responding to any of this, because that would possibly lead to settling old grudges and moving on.

I get it. The world wronged you.

From my perspective it seems like most problems are fixable through communication, but only if that can occur between rational parties that are willing. Neither seems likely in this case.

Kinda sad, really. Life is grand, we have so many great places to climb, titties, beer, we live in the 43rd freest country in the world, you'd think gratitude would enter into it sometime. Oh well.

Looking forward to climbing at Laurel sometime down the road. Will try to enjoy the climbing and not focus on a he-said she-said one-sided non-conversation. Seems like the obvious solution.

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By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Dec 30, 2013
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credi...
Killis, do my posts in the Stone Mtn. thread now make sense? I wasn't just trying to hate to hate. Most people want to respect Shannon without knowing the history of his behavior publicly on the forums. You can include me in that group. He has put up many badass routes in the SE. His ice slide show was one of the coolest presentations I have seen. Despite this, I can't support his agenda of publicly defaming the CCC, anyone from NC, or anyone that he feels is below his style. To err is human, but the amount of good work the aforementioned groups do is above any of the petty squabbles that are brought up. Honestly, he would be idolized if he just stuck to telling cool stories, beta for wild routes, and his wicked un-tamed career as a climber. Instead, I think we will just continue to get Krusty the Curmudgeon. I hope that I am wrong.

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By Stone Nude
Dec 30, 2013
When dumb people have disposable income, hilarity ...
Yeah, I get it. I get his frustration with many of the situations he's mentioned. What I have trouble understanding is the lack of follow-through. Problems are solved by diligence, not repeated nagging. If you want the problems solved, maybe that's the part I'm missing-

Realistically everyone posting here who's been in the trenches could probably use a sit down on Meme's porch with a few Kentucky Cigars, some pale ale, and some tall tales. It's much easier to make friends that way than long distance, and much harder to just shit talk and turn your back. Truth.

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By Br'er Rabbit
From The Briar Patch
Dec 30, 2013
'Bred en bawn in a brier-patch, Brer Fox--bred en ...
In Shannon's defense, his rants do sometimes come off as short sighted and gruff via the web. But, to hear the same tirades over beer and campfire is not only entertaining and historically interesting, it also comes off much more light hearted. Often, these debates deteriorate into bleary-eyed, tall tales on everyone's behalf....big falls, epic bails, runouts overcome, etc. Any of these guys and Shannon could get together and have a good time on or off the rock even if the impasse remains. Although not unimaginable, I have yet to see Shannon have an unbearable problem with anyone face to face. His passion for igniting controversy concerning perceived wrongs at the hands of the 'NC elite' is hugely overshadowed by his ongoing passion for putting up new routes and the good times that ensue before and after. I imagine that he has spent more time on the rock, in WNC, than any other person currently alive, maybe ever. He really enjoys sharing WNC (and the rest of the SE) with all sorts of people....beginners to hard-folk.

We all have our shortcomings, but it certainly appears that many of us find these debates (online and in real life) stimulating. This is evidenced by the length of these threads, the length and history of these debates, and the loudness in the cool, dark evenings in backwoods Jackson County. I think it's good to have these discussions, even if there is no solution or consensus. If not simply for the entertainment, to keep the mind stimulated on ethics, best practices, land/crag management, bolting, etc.

Like it or not, there is a coming new wave of gym-bred, bolt-happy, ethics-confused, lazier-than-yesterday climbers/developers. In essence, both sides of this argument want the same thing...a respectable, stylish future for one of the world's greatest climbing venues...Western NC, the greater Carolinas, and the SE in general. Whether Stegg and others can work it out or not on some of the LK squabbles, the greater good would be to focus on the future that we are all staring down.

Pirate's Cove top out...Fall 2010.
Pirate's Cove top out...Fall 2010.

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By Stone Nude
Jan 1, 2014
When dumb people have disposable income, hilarity ...
^^^^ words of wisdom

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By Paul Barnes
From Gainesville, Georgia
Jan 1, 2014
BHMBen wrote:
Like it or not, there is a coming new wave of gym-bred, bolt-happy, ethics-confused, lazier-than-yesterday climbers/developers.


They're not coming...they're here.

I blame indoor climbing and 5.9 sport routes for the current state of things. But...there's no goin back now. It's only gonna get worse. It really is a shame.

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