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By Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
Dec 4, 2013
Coffee after freezing our asses off near James Pea...
So, to recap:


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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Dec 4, 2013
Bucky
TomCaldwell wrote:
Do you even believe your first sentence in your second paragraph?


Actually, yes. I have climbed and enjoyed routes that had pitches with nearly no pro on a given pitch. That said, I think it would be rather unfortunate if everything was bolted in that fashion. And yes, I also realize that ground up routes are not necessarily synonymous with run out routes.

TomCaldwell wrote:
The only reason this type of discussion keeps popping up about NC is because the majority of western NC is made of granite-monoliths with little natural pro. So we aren't trying to be NC elitists, its just unique to the area for the aforementioned reason. Ryan's reasoning for posting this in the forums is laughable. Do you even believe your first sentence in your second paragraph?


No, 'granite monoliths with little natural gear' are in no way unique to NC. Go climb on Glacier Point Apron or the Dome in the SPlatte or Whitney Portal. Stance bolting is a very common theme. Which is exactly why it is funny to hear folks tell others that 'you wouldn't understand, NC is different.' No, its not. I think you should give some thought to the last post that NC Rock Climber just wrote. Its well-thought out and presents a very reasonable perspective. If more folks adopted a similar perspecitve (on both sides of the debate) then this whole forum thread would be largely unnecessary. But obviously this forum thread isn't unnecessary, which is exactly why Ryan bumped it.

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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 4, 2013
El Chorro
One if the reasons NC is special to all of us is that some good things about climbing "back in the day" have been preserved here. It's not about being hard, it's just about an apropriate use of land. Tom, you definitely understand that.

I don't think a discussion about a route like this is laughable; not at all. I am not alone in saying that if people are allowed to just rap bolt everything then western NC will soon be full of mediocre, grid bolted sport crags. That ruins another part of NC that we love so much: silence and cleanliness.

If you don't think that raising awareness about this kind of ascent will help preserve the climbing we have in NC then I won't argue with you - we'll juat have to agree to disagree.

And yea I do believe what I said. It is possile for us to have a discussion. We've gone pages and pages talking about Moore's Wall without being disrespectful to each other. IIRC, one of those threads was started in the same way (also by me).

It's not my fault that most people either don't understand the true nature of the issue and/or can't communicate without implanting ego into every other sentance.

And to be honest, this aint that bad. Healthy, even. And I stand by what I said: more people will see this and join in if it's in the forums and not at the bottom if some route page that no one is going to even look at.

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By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Dec 4, 2013
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credi...
I was referring to Ryan's post when I said "first sentence second paragraph".

I did read his post. I have personal experience with his last paragraph having climbed a route at Laurel where the crux pitch was rap-bolted. The pitch was terrible, because none of the bolts were at stances. You would have get out of the stemming water groove to traverse a few feet to the right every time to clip the bolts then try to get back into the stem. This was mainly because the top anchor was far to the side than the climbing line. Every person I talked to that had done the route agreed with how poorly it was bolted because it was rap-bolted. I can think of another route at the Bald that was rap-bolted and all of the clips were too tall for the stances.

J. Albers, you say that stance bolting is a very common theme at those cliffs you mentioned. So why are we having this discussion. We are only asking for bolts placed at stances. The fear with changing any tradition is always the fear of the "slippery slope".

edit: Ryan, I didn't mean the topic was laughable just that having a discussion about NC tradition and it not becoming a pissing contest is laughable. I completely agree with your last post. Not waiting in line for a climb, silence, natural beauty, close-knit community are all reasons why I love NC. I cringe when I think of how sport climbing has become at the Red. It was hard for me to believe your first post when I started seeing people post up that in other threads call their fellow members f'ing idiots.

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By nbrown
From western NC
Dec 4, 2013
Top of Shortoff with the Bonsai
I for one appreciate the entertainment value of this thread. This site was starting to get pretty boring lately...

A few comments:

Yes Rumbling Bald is public property, however, it being a state park (like all in NC), the rule is no new routes or fixed gear. This has been a gray area for a while, as the park has gradually taken over and instituted climbing regulations. Also complicating this is the fact that parts of the wall may still not be officially owned by the park, as it is a large area. I certainly don't claim to be an angel in following these rules, I'm just pointing out the facts.

The general theme of leading routes at Rumbling Bald is a far cry from that of Cashiers Valley. Rumbly has for many years been a place where ground-up routes and top-down routes could co-exist. Several of Rumbly's most popular routes were done top-down (ie, much of the stuff over by "Seven Year Itch").

However, Cashiers also has a few routes of the top-down variety that haven't been erased, despite common misconception. I'm talking about routes on both the north face and the southeast face of Whiteside mtn.

Also, I wanna point out that there are many shades of the so-called "ground-up" style that have been implemented in this region, most of which are merely technicalities and not truly ground-up. True ground-up does not include inspecting it first, or any of the other shenanigans that are often used.

Two major arguments about why style matters:

One is that when there are a premium of FA's to be done at a given cliff, especially an area with a traditional approach (as with the Cereal Wall), when someone comes along and does a line top-down they essentially rob would-be ground-up ascents from ever getting a chance (to either start or finish). This has happened in the past and (rightfully so) pisses people off. Since most top-down routes can be done very fast they can also tend to be overdone -- in the sense of a bunch of routes in short time. This was not the case in this particular instance, but is something worth noting.

In this instance it is likely more of an issue of "Fair Weather Friend" being accidentally retro-bolted over an already existing "line". However, I'm doubtful that's the only retro job on that wall.

If for no other reason than the huge pain in the ass it must have been to walk all the way around the Cereal Wall only to rap down it, I at least admire their enthusiasm. It would've certainly been easier to just bolt it from the bottom up.

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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Dec 4, 2013
tanuki
TomCaldwell wrote:
...We are only asking for bolts placed at stances...


With respect, Tom, that is not what I am hearing here. I am reading that rap bolting, regardless of the quality of the resulting route, is "bad."

To address Ryan's post, you said "if people are allowed to just rap bolt everything then western NC will soon be full of mediocre, grid bolted sport crags." I see this statement as intentionally inflammatory. More to the point, what is wrong with "sport crags?" Assuming that no laws are being broken, what gives you (or any user group) the right to dictate how a public resource is used? Until you get a land manger to create a policy outlawing bolts, your personal preference for ground-up FAs and "traditional ethics" is just that, your preference. Any attempt on your part to force other s to adhere to your beliefs is no different from a religious group trying to coerce non-belivers to follow their doctrine.

You talk about "silence and cleanliness" in NC. While I also love this aspect of backcountry NC climbing, I don't see that rap-bolting is going to significantly change the level of noise or pollution at any given crag. To me, these types of arguments are just a smoke-screen meant to divert one away from the true issue; a small group wants to both control access to and the usage of a public resource and, in the process, differentiate themselves from the ignorant masses that don't share their "ethics."

While Ryan and I might not agree on this issue, I am glad that he bumped this. It is a relevant issue, especially in light of the growing popularity of climbing and the large number of new climber venturing outdoors. We, the community of experienced climbers, need to realize that not everyone thinks the way that we do. We need to learn to live with the increase in traffic at our favorite crags and learn to live with users that may not share our "ethics."

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By J. Albers
From Colorado
Dec 4, 2013
Bucky
TomCaldwell wrote:
I have personal experience with his last paragraph having climbed a route at Laurel where the crux pitch was rap-bolted. The pitch was terrible, because none of the bolts were at stances. You would have get out of the stemming water groove to traverse a few feet to the right every time to clip the bolts then try to get back into the stem. This was mainly because the top anchor was far to the side than the climbing line. Every person I talked to that had done the route agreed with how poorly it was bolted because it was rap-bolted. I can think of another route at the Bald that was rap-bolted and all of the clips were too tall for the stances.


What you are describing actually just sounds like bad bolting that has nothing to do with the style of FA. Well bolted sport routes should always have the bolts placed at 'clipping stances'. Who wants to stop to clip a bolt in the middle of a crux sequence? My experience is actually the opposite of yours. That is, I have climbed a lot of ground up routes that wandered all over creation because that is where the stances were. The climbing on those routes would have been way better if the bolts had been placed on the line of the best climbing. Truth be told, either bolting style is fine with me as long as it is done well...and that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with rap bolting versus GU.

TomCaldwell wrote:
J. Albers, you say that stance bolting is a very common theme at those cliffs you mentioned. So why are we having this discussion. We are only asking for bolts placed at stances. The fear with changing any tradition is always the fear of the "slippery slope".


We are having this discussion because folks like you demand that everyone adhere to your definition of what is okay. While I understand the whole slippery slope issue, that doesn't have to be how it is. For example, Shuteye Ridge in California was a bastion of traditionalism back in the day (its where Royal taught some of his Rock Craft classes). More recently, however, a fairly large number of sport development went on (and unfortunately some questionable behavior by both types of FA'ists). There were some growing pains between the old and new schoolers, but a reasonable understanding grew out of that conversation and now the ground up and top down communities exist in relative harmony. In fact, there is currently a lot of cross over between the individuals doing the 'other' style of FA. The take home for me is that both styles are okay, folks just need to communicate constructively and be reasonable and open to other styles of climbing (within boundaries of course).

TomCaldwell wrote:
Not waiting in line for a climb, silence, natural beauty, close-knit community are all reasons why I love NC. I cringe when I think of how sport climbing has become at the Red. It was hard for me to believe your first post when I started seeing people post up that in other threads call their fellow members f'ing idiots.


I never called you an idiot and we probably have a lot more in common with regards to values than you think. I too cringe at the 'scene' at many major sport venues. I can't stand fixed draws all over everything, boomboxes, trash, and loud mouthed bro-brah fests. That said, I also realize that the style of the FA doesn't define the feel and scene of the crag. My favorite crags are quiet, full of natural beauty, and have an ethic of minimizing human impact. Fortunately you can have these things at crags that are put up top down or ground up, its just up to the community to have constructive discussions that mentor folks in the direction that accomplishes that. My guess is that this is what you are trying to accomplish as well, and I am just suggesting to you that demanding ground up routes is not the best way to achieve your goal.

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By Br'er Rabbit
From The Briar Patch
Dec 4, 2013
'Bred en bawn in a brier-patch, Brer Fox--bred en ...
NC Rock Climber wrote:
Assuming that no laws are being broken, what gives you (or any user group) the right to dictate how a public resource is used?


Well sir, this hammer and this wrench....CHOP. CHOP. CHOP.

Seriously, though....

If Nathan weighs in in favor of ground up, Sean weighs in, Tom agrees, Whipper makes his very good point, the prevalent history suggests ground up, and every legit FA'er (Andrew, Shannon, Jody, Jeep...) I have seen at work in NC does their thing ground up, who are any of these naysayers to make any sort of claim in support of rap bolting 5.7 slab? How can any sort of serious argument in support of rap bolting stand? Seems childish, weak, short-sighted, lazy, and generally just an all-around bad idea if you have ANY familiarity with the tradition of the area and the style with which these sorts of things SHOULD be done.

Check it....

AM FAing this route from high on LK left.
AM FAing this route from high on LK left.




Way to stir the pot Ryan.

FLAG
 
By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Dec 4, 2013
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credi...
J. Albers, the "f'ing idiot" comment wasn't referring to you, but another users post. I was merely explaining to Ryan that I was waiting for this thread to devolve.

You guys are all correct, a person can rap bolt and get all the bolts in at stances. The problem is, if there is a stance to clip the bolt then there is one to drill it.

My fervor for the ground up style also comes from respect and admiration for those that preceded me. There is definitely a gray area of when something should be top down, but like Ben said on a "5.7 slab!". Personally, I want to live up to those standards and so should everyone else wanting to get an FA in NC. When I started climbing I didn't have the same view point, but I have come to appreciate a LONG standing tradition.

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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Dec 4, 2013
tanuki
Tradition, this is the way "we" have always done it, anyone who disagrees is "childish, weak, short-sighted, lazy." If you don't do as we say, then we will vandalize your route. Yup, that is a cogent argument for why everyone should adhere to your "ethics".

I have yet to hear a single reason that rap-bolters do not have the right to set routes in that style or why a certain user group gets the special right to control how public lands are used.

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By Greg Berry
Dec 4, 2013
Just make sure all chopping is done ground up.

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By sanz
From Raleigh, NC
Dec 4, 2013
One of my first trad leads, on Ooga Chocka at Crow...
NC Rock Climber wrote:
I have yet to hear a single reason that rap-bolters do not have the right to set routes in that style or why a certain user group gets the special right to control how public lands are used.


Rap drillers have the right to set routes in their style and the OGs of the area have the right to talk shit.

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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 4, 2013
El Chorro
NC Rock Climber wrote:
With respect, Tom, that is not what I am hearing here. I am reading that rap bolting, regardless of the quality of the resulting route, is "bad." To address Ryan's post, you said "if people are allowed to just rap bolt everything then western NC will soon be full of mediocre, grid bolted sport crags." I see this statement as intentionally inflammatory. More to the point, what is wrong with "sport crags?" Assuming that no laws are being broken, what gives you (or any user group) the right to dictate how a public resource is used? Until you get a land manger to create a policy outlawing bolts, your personal preference for ground-up FAs and "traditional ethics" is just that, your preference. Any attempt on your part to force other s to adhere to your beliefs is no different from a religious group trying to coerce non-belivers to follow their doctrine. You talk about "silence and cleanliness" in NC. While I also love this aspect of backcountry NC climbing, I don't see that rap-bolting is going to significantly change the level of noise or pollution at any given crag. To me, these types of arguments are just a smoke-screen meant to divert one away from the true issue; a small group wants to both control access to and the usage of a public resource and, in the process, differentiate themselves from the ignorant masses that don't share their "ethics." While Ryan and I might not agree on this issue, I am glad that he bumped this. It is a relevant issue, especially in light of the growing popularity of climbing and the large number of new climber venturing outdoors. We, the community of experienced climbers, need to realize that not everyone thinks the way that we do. We need to learn to live with the increase in traffic at our favorite crags and learn to live with users that may not share our "ethics."


It's not that I have a problem with sport climbing. I love sport climbing. I have FAed many more sport routes than I have trad routes. Aside from a once in a lifetime trip to Norway last summer, all I have done in the past two years is boulder and sport climb.

My problem is this: once an area gets the "green light" to be rap bolted, then some gang usually comes along and bolts all the onvious lines very quickly. Then a second group of climbers, upset that they missed out on all the fun, comes in and grid bolts every thing else, just so that they still feel good about being "real climbers" who do first ascents.

So not only so you have a wall or crag that is probably over developed, but any chance for ground up climbing is gone and any routes that were already done in that style are ruined. There is no opportunity for the visionary climber out there to put up what could have been an amazing route, because the ego climbers have put up a bunch of mediocre routes.

I'm sorry, I know I'm not explaining myself that well, but of you've climbed at enough areas, you know there are more than a few that just feel contrived. A waste of time and effort, if you will. Bolted for ego, not for enjoyment. And in a place like NC, where there is a lot of featured rock between 5.6 and 5.10, we could easily end up with a bunch of soulless, generic, half hearted grid bolted crags.

OR, we could preserve what's already been done and try to honor it by sticking to the same or similar styles. That way we end up with historic routes, proud lines, days that we dream about, and experiences that we never forget.

Look at Moore's Wall. The climbing is good, much of it great. But what really makes it stand out is that it HAS NO BOLTS! Why, because we stick to the ground up style and anyone who doesn't gets the boot. If we allowed people to come in and rap bolt stuff, the entire crag could be grid bolted, creating yet another sport crag with a shit load of generic 5.9s and 5.10s. You tell me that type of crag 2 hours from Raleigh would still be nice and peaceful.

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By Mike Reardon
Dec 4, 2013
Cereal Wall Center
Cereal Wall Center

If I am looking at everything correctly (TK guide and climbing FWF and surrounding routes), the biggest issue with the bolts in regards to NC climbing ethics is that they were placed right over the first pitch of Lucky Charms. Sure, everything else in the vicinity was done ground up with sparser bolting but drilling right over an existing documented line should not happen. That said, I never climbed 'Lucky Charms' until it was retro bolted and I gladly clipped every bolt along the way. Hmmm.

A second pitch moving far right over the head wall would be great. I do not believe it has been completed (topo pic has surrounding routes).

The thread comments here are interesting, thanks for stirring the pot!

FLAG
By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Dec 4, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after...
NC Rock Climber wrote:
I don't see that rap-bolting is going to significantly change the level of noise or pollution at any given crag.


That depends. It is possible to bolt on rappel sparsely, and only at necessary points to protect the climb, and at good stances. The opposite is possible too. While I do agree with you that there should be the leeway for someone to establish FAs in their own manner, there is certainly something to be said for trying to stay respectfully within the parameters of the style of routes in the vicinity. The vast majority of the routes in NC have a history of being bold. By bold, I don't mean difficult necessarily, although this certainly applies as well. By bold I mean when you clip a bolt on a slab, you were inches away from shitting a meat axe and you're damn glad you were able to keep it together to get there. (BTW, I'm just speaking generally, as you're from NC so you probably don't need to be told this). It is possible to create a route that is in good keeping of the character of the routes that surround it, even if it is bolted on rappel. You can still find stances on rappel, and rap bolting does not necessarily mean a bolt ladder is going to go in. The catalyst is that the FA has to know what he (or she) is doing, and they have to give a shit.

Dave asked the question earlier: " would this line have gone in at all, if it had to go in ground up?" Which is certainly valid if you regard the local tradition in any way. If you disregard it, then not so much. I will pose a different question. Would anyone know it didn't go in ground up if not for that picture and the question that Eddie asked? Is it out of character with what surrounds it? I think if you can honestly answer a resounding "YES", then you have a legit gripe.

In spite of all this, I see very well a local NC veteran's point of view. If you give carte blanche to rap bolting, then there is a very real possibility that some terrible hack jobs will go up. It is not as if there is no precedent for this in the southeast, and this, I believe, is the source of most of the protesting. I see it as valid. Others don't, obviously.

Personally, I lean toward the side of the people that question it. It's a local's right to do so, and like someone mentioned earlier, a lot of people disagreed with all the crap going down at Smith, but they have their own way of doing things, and the people whom it affects most, naturally have the most right to be heard and considered. I don't think anyone can argue with that. If you're never going to climb there, or you get there once every few years or so, your opinion matters less than the people that call it home.

Either way, I like NC climbing. It's adventurous, it's where I first plugged gear, and it humbles me. I don't see anything wrong with aligning yourself with interests that seek to keep it that way. I want to make it clear though that I also think those that have said it's public land and an FA can do what he sees fit as such have a point as well. It's my sincere hope though, that before any FA goes up in any area, the FAer has the humility to consider how his choice will affect that which surrounds him, and also have a bit of respect for those that came before in that same area and made his FA likely and possible.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt though, I'm just some weekend warrior who gets out and chuffs it up when I can save enough gas money and vacation time to do so.

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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Dec 4, 2013
tanuki
I started to write a longer post, but in the end it is a waste of time. Discussions about "climbing ethics" are like discussions about religion. No minds will be changed no matter how much any of us type.

Cheers.

FLAG
 
By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Dec 5, 2013
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credi...
Even if the route has the same nature as it's surroundings, it is still not okay. Rap-bolting artificial runouts or bold climbing just to fit in is even more lame. This reminds me of the Johns Rock incident a few years ago. Someone bolted right over an existing line only because their ego made them not want to ask anyone or share their info prior to adding the route. NC isn't climbed out, but it really helps to ask around before putting drill to rock.

FLAG
By Adam Paashaus
From Greensboro, North Carolina
Dec 5, 2013
After you get done climbing be sure to head up to ...
NC is a tough place to put up new routes even if you go ground up unless you talk to all the locals and even then it can be a bit vague. I just assume that its all been done. Everything is hush hush so you never really know what has been climbed. I've seen lots of rock all over the place, but the thought of ever placing a bolt here is scary for these reasons. I personally like that fact. Lots of areas to explore and when you get a tip on an area not well documented, it makes for an amazing experience when you go exploring. We all know RB no backwater and even more reason, IMHO, to follow local ethics, wich Nate pointed out is unfortunately a bit grey but it seems this route is still out of place.

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By Jay Young
Dec 5, 2013
Ethics and style aside, if you're going to rap bolt a 5.7 in North Carolina, you really should expect some sort of backlash.

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By Kingk
Dec 5, 2013
This topic is interesting, so here are my thoughts. Sorry for the long post.

I think some of the differing opinions in this debate stem from a misunderstanding between the concepts of style and ethics.

Ethics are a set of rules that are decided among the community, or sometimes dictated by a land owner/manager, usually intended to allow for enjoyment of the area while maintaining its longevity. The ethics of an area are specifically important to understand when dealing with nonreversible practices, and hopefully these decisions are made including the opinions of all user groups of that area and somehow weight the opinions of the locals/most common users more heavily. Some examples of ethical questions would be: Should bolting be aloud? Should public access be aloud? Should chipping or cleaning be allowed?

Style is different, it is a personal choice as to how someone wants to use an area to create the most fun experience and maintain an acceptable risk leave for the individual. Style is not, or should not, be decided by the community. It is a personal choice. Some examples of differentiating styles are: sport vs. trad, clean aid vs. aid, rope climbing vs. soloing, hiking vs. climbing at all, or even bolting ground up vs. rap bolting.

The lines between style and ethics do get blurred, however, because the ethics of an area can limit the choices of style. For example, If the ethics of an area say no bolting is allowed then the option of climbing in a sport climbing style is out, but the options of trad, clean aid, or soloing are all still acceptable uses of the area. In this sense ethics can sometimes dictate style; it is a mistake though, to let style dictate ethics.

If anyone here were arguing this route is bad because it should not be bolted at all or it is bolted poorly then it would be a debate on ethics. That does not seem to be the debate here, this debate seems to be over the style in which the bolts were placed. It is fine to personally think one style is better than another, or to give more credit to people who accomplished something in a cleaner, faster, riskier, or more skillful style, but an attempt to force others to adhere to your preferred style when there style is fine by the current code of ethic is inappropriate.

Maybe a good question to ask in determining if we are talking about style or ethics would be “what do the non-climber user groups of this area think about this issue?” If the answer to that question is “we don’t care”, then we’re probably not talking ethics.

This is all just my opinion of course, and I would be happy to see if someone has an explanation as to why this is a debate on ethics not style. I do not buy the grid bolting explanation pointed out by others above though. Debated whether or not the area should be grid bolted is an ethics question, it’s just not the question being discussed here.

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By Peter Jackson
From Rumney, NH
Dec 5, 2013
Just in case the two big belay anchors aren't obvi...
Kingk wrote:
Ethics are a set of rules that are decided among the community, or sometimes dictated by a land owner/manager, usually intended to allow for enjoyment of the area while maintaining its longevity.


Since you mention it: those are not ethics. They are norms. "Ethics" refers to the framework you use to determine your moral values.

The only reason normative ethics are relevant to this debate is because there is often a clash between consequentionalists, who assert that the ends justify the means, and deontologists who assert that certain actions are always immoral (in NC, rap bolting, for example).

But in climbing there is a universal norm: to respect the accepted local practice. To deviate is immoral, regardless of the normative ethical framework you use to evaluate behavior.

Carry on.

FLAG
By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Dec 5, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after...
Someone has studied Kant.

FLAG
By Peter Jackson
From Rumney, NH
Dec 5, 2013
Just in case the two big belay anchors aren't obvi...
Jake Jones wrote:
Someone has studied Kant.


Yes. And I wish more folks had done the same!

FLAG
By Kingk
Dec 5, 2013
Peter, I will admit that I am likely not as studied in philosophy as you seem to be, but I will say that you seem to have ignored the meaning behind the ideas I presented and instead want to focus on semantics. I find that is usually the strategy of someone that is more interested in being right at all cost than someone who is attempting to think through the issue in a balanced manner. I apologize in advance if this is an unfair characterization of your statement. If a valuable point was intended I missed it.

Your clarification of my usage of the term ethics is confusing to me as well being that you define a distinction between norms and ethics by saying “Ethics refers to the framework you use to determine your moral values” but only two sentences later clam that to deviate from a “universal norm” is immoral. It seems to me that is too large a jump to make than logic would allow. Whether deviating from a norm is immoral or not would depend on your morals, wouldn’t you say? All of that is a moot point anyway because it is just arguing semantics.

My point was that regardless of what you call it, norms or ethics (or ethics used to determine a set of moral values which are in turn the values we use to create the norms), those are what we decide as a community, the things that affect us all. Style, as I’m using the word, are things that are decided on an individual basis because they do not affect the community, and I see no reason why the issue of rap bolting is anything other than a different style to accomplish the same thing. I am not trying to argue that the ends justify the means. I’m saying in this case, the ends are already decidedly ok, and the means don’t affect any of us and are therefore not our place to decide. If the outcome is favorable, and the means are indeterminable, what is the objection?

FLAG
 
By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 5, 2013
El Chorro
Forgive me for being the dumb one, but who says the outcome is "favorable?"

FLAG


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