Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
Fair-Weather Friend
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 1 of 5.  1  2  3  4  5   Next>   Last>>
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
 
By Edward Medina
Administrator
From Ridgway, CO
Feb 4, 2013
The FA of Full Scholarship
This post was originally a comment in Fair-Weather Friend

Did this line go in ground up?

FLAG
By Jon Kulikowski
Feb 18, 2013
Trusty old Coyotes.
This post was originally a comment in Fair-Weather Friend

We rap bolted it. Then lead it full redpoint on the FA.

FLAG
By Brad Caldwell
From Deep in the Jocassee Gorges
Feb 18, 2013
This post was originally a comment in Fair-Weather Friend

Bet those bolts will get chopped since it didn't go in ground up...just saying. Not really "NC ethic" in a place that's pretty entrenched in it.

FLAG
By Edward Medina
Administrator
From Ridgway, CO
Feb 19, 2013
The FA of Full Scholarship
This post was originally a comment in Fair-Weather Friend

RB has a pretty good history of co-existence between rap bolted and ground up lines. I doubt anyone will chop this. Having said that, I think it's a fair (and telling) observation that you guys have put up potentially the easiest line on the Cereal Wall, and the only one to go in top down. I think you have missed a golden opportunity to add to the legacy of a dearly held tradition on something that is easily attainable for someone climbing at your ability level.

FLAG
By Brad Caldwell
From Deep in the Jocassee Gorges
Feb 19, 2013
This post was originally a comment in Fair-Weather Friend

Usually rap bolted lines at the Bald have been well over the 5.10 range and anything that could be led ground up, especially in the easier lower grades, is expected to be FA'ed that way...thats why I mentioned it getting chopped.

I still think this may be a retro bolt of a Sean Cobourn route he did during his 50 FA's while he was 50...the photo looks similar to one he posted during that time. Either way, I have no investment in chopping, but that doesnt mean someone else doesn't.

FLAG
By Jon Kulikowski
Feb 21, 2013
Trusty old Coyotes.
This post was originally a comment in Fair-Weather Friend

If this line was done before it was free-solo; After setting up the anchors I scoured the pitch for more than an hour looking for placements.

The suggestion that someone would chop this line simply due to the method of bolting is absolutely appalling. My partner and I spent three days searching for a line that went. One day finding our way to the top of the cliff, rappelling cleanly to the anchor position, and another two days bolting it due to issues with the drill batteries. We used all stainless steel hardware (unlike much of the wall) and only used enough bolts to make it safe.

Our desire was to contribute a line that climbers may enjoy for decades to come. Bolting on rappel enabled us to use a minimal amount of hardware, without sacrificing safety. If someone feels that they have the right to destroy our hard-fought creation for any reason then I implore them to plead their case.

FLAG
By Brad Caldwell
From Deep in the Jocassee Gorges
Feb 22, 2013
This post was originally a comment in Fair-Weather Friend

Its kind of odd that you wanted to provide the community with a new route, but yet you don't understand that community. RB has a preferred ground up style, especially on something as easy as a 5.7. What you have done was neutered that chunk of rock down to your level because you couldn't place bolts ground up, which is the accepted/preferred style for this crag. North Carolina has a long history of its preferred style and this is the standard that all developers are expected to live up to. What may be acceptable in Tennessee isn't necessarily accepted in NC. I've said it before, I don't have an investment to chop your hardware, but there are plenty of individuals that see it as disrespectful to go to a crag and not follow traditions and expected "ethics", especially when establishing routes. I can only suggest that in the future you find out about the preferred styles of any crag before you develop a new line there...its simply showing respect for those that came before you.

FLAG
By Sean Cobourn
From Gramling, SC
Mar 11, 2013
Caught Up In The Air- photo by Thomas Kelley
This post was originally a comment in Fair-Weather Friend

After reading the comments I just had to go climb this. Nice line. I could quibble about where the bolts are, how many there are, how they went in, and the appearance that it isn't finished since it doesn't even go to the headwall, but nah, I won't. I will however point out that it is no where near Water Into Whine. It starts above the next tree ledge a good bit further right. This is near Trix Are For Kids and left of Sugar Pop Rocks. To Jon and Nathan- Go finish it !

FLAG
 
By JohnWesely
From Red River Gorge
Aug 25, 2013
Gunking
This post was originally a comment in Fair-Weather Friend

Jon, if you wanna go back and bring it to the top ground up...

FLAG
By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 3, 2013
El Chorro
Just thought I'd bump this to the top. I thought that having this discussion in the forums would bring in more opinions and I think that is a good thing.

I don't intend to create a pissing contest here, just a civil discussion about history and style. As you can see from the comments above and the ones on the route page, the style in which this route went up is not common in this area.

FLAG
By Brad Caldwell
From Deep in the Jocassee Gorges
Dec 3, 2013
I dont see a reason to dig this horse up and kick it again.?! IMO, the "FAers" have been called out enough for their gumbiness and the conversation has completed.

If you want a conversation on style, then here it is in a nutshell...find out about the areas you plan on putting new routes up at before you put in a new route. It only takes 5 minutes to search the web or talk to any nearby climber to get a feel for whats acceptable or unacceptable at whatever crag you're at.

FLAG
By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Dec 3, 2013
tanuki
Brad Caldwell wrote:
...have been called out enough for their gumbiness.


This really rubs me the wrong way. Correct me if I am wrong, Brad, but their is no law against placing bolts at the Bald. It is public land, and the FAers have every right to climb and set routes in the manner that they see fit. Despite your assertion to the contrary, the NC climbing community is far from unanimous in its opinion of what constitutes good climbing "ethics." I fully support a respectful discussion regarding the excessive use of bolts or retro-bolting (BTW, I am against both). However, I think that it is the height of arrogance for an individual or group to dictate the way another person climbs or does FAs.

FLAG
By Miike
From MA/CT border
Dec 3, 2013
my foot
Brad Caldwell wrote:
I dont see a reason to dig this horse up and kick it again.?! IMO, the "FAers" have been called out enough for their gumbiness and the conversation has completed. If you want a conversation on style, then here it is in a nutshell...find out about the areas you plan on putting new routes up at before you put in a new route. It only takes 5 minutes to search the web or talk to any nearby climber to get a feel for whats acceptable or unacceptable at whatever crag you're at.


The ethics police/Tradiban love to say this over and over. I could get 20 different answers to the same question about crag ethics at any crag on any given day. I could get 100 different answers by searching on the internet.

FLAG
By Whipper
From Douglasville, GA
Dec 3, 2013
Routes in NC and at Rumbling Bald should go up ground up, bolts or not. That's the way it's done. Sorry if you don't like it. That's what separates NC from everywhere else. And for sure a 5.7 should never have been put up in this manner, given the fact that there are 5.7 pitches all over NC, Cashiers especially, that don't have any gear for the entire pitch. Are the FA guys local or did they come from somewhere else and decide to put up a new route as a public service?

FLAG
By J. Albers
From Colorado
Dec 3, 2013
Bucky
Whipper wrote:
Routes in NC and at Rumbling Bald should go up ground up, bolts or not. That's the way it's done. Sorry if you don't like it. That's what separates NC from everywhere else. And for sure a 5.7 should never have been put up in this manner, given the fact that there are 5.7 pitches all over NC, Cashiers especially, that don't have any gear for the entire pitch. Are the FA guys local or did they come from somewhere else and decide to put up a new route as a public service?


Nope. As NC Rock Climber pointed out, its public land, so you don't get to decide 'the way it is done'. The way it is done is the way the FA did it. Moreover, many would argue that putting up routes with no protection for an entire pitch constitutes dickish, selfish use of land that everyone of us owns. Public land means that everyone has a right to use it. And demanding that all routes be ground up and runout does not accomplish this goal. To the contrary, allowing routes of varying styles is a much better way to accomplish this goal. I know this all probably really offends your misplaced sense of NC exceptionalism, but I assure you, your FA style doesn't make you a special person.

FLAG
By ChefMattThaner
From Lakewood, co
Dec 3, 2013
ducking ropes at Copper
J. Albers wrote:
The way it is done is the way the FA did it.


+1 Exactly, were not talking a place like Eldo where there are numerous organizations dedicated to preserving the minimal bolt status of the park. Instead you are arguing over a "style" in which he bolted a route that would have been bolted one way or another. Ground up or Rap bolt is ultimately the FA's choice, if you want to chop his bolts that's also your choice.

Anyone that has actually bolted more then one or two routes knows that sometimes ground up makes the most sense and sometimes rap bolting makes the most sense. Whether or not it agrees with your strict NC ethics, rap bolting sometimes does provide a safer, better, more aesthetically pleasing route.

FLAG
 
By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Dec 3, 2013
tanuki
Whipper wrote:
...That's the way it's done. Sorry if you don't like it. That's what separates NC from everywhere else...


LOL. What a load of crap. Actually, whipper, it appears that rap bolting IS being done in NC.

Nothing is stopping you from putting up FAs in the style that you see fit, but you also have no right to force others to abide by your "ethics." I know that you wish it were different and that everyone thought the same way that you do, but they don't. Deal with it.

FLAG
By Dave T
From Winston Salem
Dec 3, 2013
The riddle that will never be answered is: would this line have gone in at all, if it had to go in ground up. I don't believe it would.

And in my opinion, most first ascents that are done and immediately published online, are not put up with the climber community in mind, but for the climbers own ego.

For places like RB, where there is mostly slab... the ethic of ground up FA has always seemed to be a deterrent for any Joe (or Jon in this case) to start drilling bolts in rock.

I simply find it disrespectful.

David Tysinger

FLAG
By rock_fencer
From Columbia, SC
Dec 4, 2013
Myself placing a a blue/yellow offset MC to protec...
More drama in nc. I'll climb this route over my break and see what it's like. Might even take it up to the top through the headwall ... Because that's where the fun climbing is in cereal wall. Can't believe someone would rap the headwall and then just bolt an easy approach slab to it. For reference most of the routes in that area have four bolts max to access the headwall with most having far fewer. Curiosity peaked. The bald has some rap bolted routes and there was a fuss back then As there is now. Things still go up ground up on a regular basis in nc and we should strive to not water down the experience of the FA. If bolts are already there your just sport climbing. Which is fine but why squeeze in an approach pitch in an area of a crag that mixed harder face climbs. Just because you want to FA doesn't mean you should these guys I'm sure where well intentioned and I look forward to seeing what their creation is even if it doesn't quite sit well with me

FLAG
By ChefMattThaner
From Lakewood, co
Dec 4, 2013
ducking ropes at Copper
John Farley wrote:
@ J. Albers: "misplaced sense of NC exceptionalism." IMHO violates guideline #1.



I would have thought a bunch of ground up hardmen would be a little more thick skinned.

FLAG
By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Dec 4, 2013
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credi...
I avoid that entire end of the wall because it is mostly 4th class. There is a reason why that side of Cereal has been overlooked for so many years. I can't think of any climbs put up in NC that were top down at that grade. I believe NC FA's should always been done ground up when possible. This is public land, so we all own it. Just because it is the way the FA did it doesn't me that is the standard practice or that we have to accept it. I find it humorous that people search for FA's as an ego boost, then put the route up in the worst style. Brad is correct, man-up and do it the way it has been for the last 60+ years. I don't want NC turning into Smith where you can leave your garbage every where or some of these SW cliffs where you can bolt Kinder-grid-style. Just like in the Smith Rock debate, if your not local, your opinion doesn't matter here.

FLAG
By Whipper
From Douglasville, GA
Dec 4, 2013
Okay NC Rock Climber, do you advocate a rap drilled sport route at Whitesides? There could be one every 15'. There could be a hundred 10 pitch sport routes on Whitesides. (there was one and it got chopped - twice) How about Laurel Knob? There could be plenty there too. How about Big Green? Maybe Cashiers is an island of ground up style while the rest of NC adopts rap bolting.

FLAG
By Whipper
From Douglasville, GA
Dec 4, 2013
J. Albers wrote:

"many would argue that putting up routes with no protection for an entire pitch constitutes dickish, selfish use of land that everyone of us owns."

This is laughable. Haven't climbed much in western NC have you?

FLAG
By J. Albers
From Colorado
Dec 4, 2013
Bucky
Whipper wrote:
J. Albers wrote: "many would argue that putting up routes with no protection for an entire pitch constitutes dickish, selfish use of land that everyone of us owns." This is laughable. Haven't climbed much in western NC have you?


What, do you somehow think that NC has the runout climbing market cornered? Riiiight. No runouts in the Meadows, or the Southern Sierra, or the SPlatte. NC isn't special any more than any other area. The common thread is that it is public land, and as such, a wide variety of styles for a wide variety of people is a reasonable way to manage the resource.

This means that folks that want to put up full pitches with single points of protection have a similar right to those that want more protection. Obviously people have to be reasonable with how they apply this principle. For example, I'd be pissed if someone started sport bolting in Tuolumne, but I also totally respect the newer routes that have been put up in recent years that have much better protection than old school classics with significant R-rated sections. In fact I really enjoy both types of climbing depending on the day. The key is to be a reasonable person. And making statements to the effect that every route must be ground up and runout because 'that's how its always been done' do not fall into the 'reasonable' category.

Now, its entirely possible that the route in question is not reasonable. But this is surely hard to judge from many of the responses because people like you sound like zealots. Perhaps if you make less hyperbolic statements, then your point of view would sound more reasonable and hence easier for folks to relate to.

And to those folks that proclaim, 'if you are not from NC, then you get no voice'...

Most of the discussion here is relevant to virtually any climbing area. There isn't anything inherently special about how public land should be managed in NC versus the Southern Sierra. When folks from other areas express opinions, they are making comments that apply broadly to the climbing community as a whole. Don't get your panties in such a wad if a poster's by-line doesn't have an 'NC' underneath it.

FLAG
 
By TomCaldwell
From Clemson, S.C.
Dec 4, 2013
Me on One Pitch Wonder at Whitesides.  Photo credi...
Just because it is ground up doesn't mean it is runout J. Albers. Your entire post tries to make the two synonymous, they are not. There is something to be said about placing bolts on lead at stances, because when you go to clip those beloved shiny things your at a stance. The only reason this type of discussion keeps popping up about NC is because the majority of western NC is made of granite-monoliths with little natural pro. So we aren't trying to be NC elitists, its just unique to the area for the aforementioned reason. Nobody is getting their panties in a wad, its just that locals don't really care what three of the most squeeky-wheels of MP have to say regarding NC. We'll take care of it regardless of the outcome of this "pissing contest". Ryan's reasoning for posting this in the forums is laughable. Do you even believe your first sentence in your second paragraph?

FLAG
By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Dec 4, 2013
tanuki
Whipper wrote:
Okay NC Rock Climber, do you advocate a rap drilled sport route at Whitesides? There could be one every 15'. There could be a hundred 10 pitch sport routes on Whitesides. (there was one and it got chopped - twice) How about Laurel Knob? There could be plenty there too. How about Big Green? Maybe Cashiers is an island of ground up style while the rest of NC adopts rap bolting.


Inherent in a discussion on "correct climbing ethics" is the ascertain that one group of folks can dictate how another group or individual utilizes a public resource. Simply put, you have NO RIGHT to say how another person climbs or does FA. The rock is a public resource. As long as a person is not destroying the rock, hindering others access or breaking any laws, they have as much right to climb in their style as you do to climb in yours.

When I hear people talking about how important it is for another person to adhere to a certain climbing style, I am reminded of religious zealots who believe that they have found the "truth" and demand that everyone believe the same way as them. These types of discussions have little to do with climbing, and a lot to do with trying to control access to public lands and others behavior. To put it another way, a lot of the ground-up zealots seem a lot more concerned with denigrating those who don't share their beliefs than actually doing FAs in the style they promote.

You bring up the strawman of "a hundred 10 pitch sport routes on Whitesides… one every 10'." First off, that is not going to happen. However, please explain what the negative consequence would be of a sport route or two at one of the classic NC crags. Who is it going to hurt? What is the negative consequence going to be? Be realistic: the real-world consequences from such a route would be nil.

To answer your question, I have no problem with rap bolting at Whitesides, Laurel Knob, Big Green or Cashiers. (And, yes, I have climbed at Whitesides a bunch and Laurel Knob twice.) As long as it is a quality route and not a retro-bolt, I am 100% fine with the FA using whatever style works for them. What constitutes a "quality route" and how you manage to avert grid-bolting is a different discussion; it is a grey area that requires compromise and respectful conversation. Religious-like adherence to a set of ethics that are not shared by all stakeholders does nothing to further this conversation.

FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 1 of 5.  1  2  3  4  5   Next>   Last>>