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Extending a top rope anchor?
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By Rich zz
From california
Sep 7, 2013

How would i set up a top rope anchor if the trees/boulders are far away from the edge?


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By ARowland
Sep 7, 2013

Static rope (can be bought by the foot at climbing stores) is probably the most popular way. Be careful to pad any edges that the rope runs over to avoid abrasion; th


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By Rich zz
From california
Sep 7, 2013

so create a master point and use a static rope to extend it beyond the edge?


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By Ryan Nevius
From The Range of Light
Sep 7, 2013
Mt. Agassiz

No. Use the static rope to create the anchor. Tie the masterpoint in the line itself. This is only one example of such a situation: books.google.com/books?id=IXqk_0N1HgcC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA125#v=on>>>

I recommend you pick up a copy of this book, or something similar, and study it.


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By Rich zz
From california
Sep 7, 2013

perfect. thanks. yeah my friend has that book i think. i'll take a look.


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By ChefMattThaner
From Lakewood, co
Sep 7, 2013
ducking ropes at Copper

The link you posted said they were using 10 mil. Dynamic rope. Is there any real benefit/detraction to using dynamic over static or vice versa?? I have always figured having as many dynamic pieces in your anchor was best. I have usually chosen to use nylon over dyneema for this reason but a few of my friends definitely use static rope for this set up.


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By Ryan Nevius
From The Range of Light
Sep 7, 2013
Mt. Agassiz

chefMatt wrote:
The link you posted said they were using 10 mil. Dynamic rope. Is there any real benefit/detraction to using dynamic over static or vice versa??


Re-read the caption. It says 10 millimeter-diameter static rope.

There are some threads on here regarding static vs. dynamic cord for anchors...but in a case such as this, a static cord is going to abrade less (theoretically).


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By Ty Morrison-Heath
From Bozeman, MT
Sep 7, 2013
Profile Photo <br />

Static rope is a little more resistant to abrasion and is tougher in general. I use static for rigging highlines and topropes because it lasts longer than dynamic would. When a dynamic rope slides over an edge (which it will every time a climber takes or falls) it can beat up on the cord and cause it to wear in that spot. Pad your edges that the anchor rope runs over well with backpacks or if the climb is close to the car use the floor mats from your car.


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By ChefMattThaner
From Lakewood, co
Sep 7, 2013
ducking ropes at Copper

Ooooohhhh OK. Makes sense now. Appreciate the explanation


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By Thom S.
From Madison, WI
Sep 7, 2013

Another good alternative for extending anchors is to use basic webbing. Its cheap, light, packs well, and you can easily link multiple stands together with simple water knots. Im pretty sure you can find it by the foot as well. I used webbing today to set up anchors about 25 feet from the ledge with no problem at all.


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By Allen Sanderson
From Oootah
Sep 7, 2013

Thom S. wrote:
Another good alternative for extending anchors is to use basic webbing. Its cheap, light, packs well, and you can easily link multiple stands together with simple water knots. Im pretty sure you can find it by the foot as well. I used webbing today to set up anchors about 25 feet from the ledge with no problem at all.


I second this suggestion to use 1" tubular webbing. It is more utilitarian than static cord. Getting the correct length is easy via a water knot.


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By LawHous
From colorado springs, CO
Sep 7, 2013
Rapping before rock pitch of east ridge

ARowland wrote:
Static rope (can be bought by the foot at climbing stores) is probably the most popular way. Be careful to pad any edges that the rope runs over to avoid abrasion; th


+1 to that for sure man

Static is the way to go. I recently took an AMGA SPI assessment and static rope is pretty much all we used to set up TR. My anchors usually consisted of a tree and maybe a couple gear placements in a crack with the master hanging over the edge. Or two trees work just as good, when you have a 30m static you can pretty much do whatever. Be weary of boulders though.


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By Mark Pilate
Sep 8, 2013

A key point to emphasize for people new to set-ups/rigging is that top rope set-ups (especially long anchor lengths) need to be STATIC because of the sawing motion over the edge due to any dynamics in the system --as someone said, webbing is better than line for this. Unless you have rollers over the edge, using a climbing rope for top-rope anchors is not recommended. Regardless, frequently check the status of your anchor to ensure that the settling, equalization, and wear is proper and how you expected it to be


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By Ryan Nevius
From The Range of Light
Sep 8, 2013
Mt. Agassiz

Mark Pilate wrote:
...webbing is better than line for this. Unless you have rollers over the edge, using a climbing rope for top-rope anchors is not recommended.


This is the first time I've ever heard of this being "not recommended." Has testing been done to prove this, or is it just a personal opinion? When I think about testing abrasion resistance of tubular webbing vs static rope (for example, by repeatedly loading and unloading it over a sharp edge), it doesn't make sense that a flat, thin piece of webbing would hold up any better than a 10mm static line. I could be wrong. I'd love to see the test results.


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By Woodchuck ATC
Sep 8, 2013
Rock Wars, RRG, 2008

I always use 1 inch webbing..Double runners. Same length, but 2 identical runners from whatever anchor I have, no matter how far back it is. Runners over the edge instead of any static line for me...because it seems to be foolproof and doubled up security. Of course, double 'biners too, one of them is a locker for sure, on all runner connections and for the climbing rope once over the edge. Been using this for over 35 years for top ropes at DL.


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By olddog
Sep 8, 2013

user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/Qualifying_a_Rescue_Rope.p>>>


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By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Sep 8, 2013
Russ

Ryan Nevius wrote:
This is the first time I've ever heard of this being "not recommended." Has testing been done to prove this, or is it just a personal opinion? When I think about testing abrasion resistance of tubular webbing vs static rope (for example, by repeatedly loading and unloading it over a sharp edge), it doesn't make sense that a flat, thin piece of webbing would hold up any better than a 10mm static line. I could be wrong. I'd love to see the test results.


Amid the hyperbole, there is truth. Using a dynamic cord is not great on a long extension. What is long? 30 feet? More? Hard to say, but I have used a regular dynamic cord on a really long TR set up... maybe 40 feet of extension and after many falls it did saw about halfway through 2 strands on a coarse rounded summit. But, as to not being recommended, I'm thinking that is hogwash in most instances. Would a static do the same thing in the same scenario? Probably, but not to the same degree as a dynamic cord I would guess.

Use 4 strands if you are worried or shorten up your long run with a lip piece that takes the sawing action out of any falls.

Plus, I'd sooner use a static line of a nice dimension (9 or more) instead of webbing any day. Tests? Naw... just lots of TR experience with all the various methods.


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By bearbreeder
Sep 8, 2013

in general thicker static ropes are more abrasion "resistant" than webbing ... see the link someone posted above

yates also claims in their page that flat webbing is more resistant that tubular webbing

as to dynamic ropes ... plenty of people use old dynamic ropes for TR anchors just fine, especially ropes that have become much less "stretchy" with age ... they dont die

build anchors that can withstand the failure of any single strand, and pad the edges accounting for any possible stretch

which means of course that even with a single "bomber" tree, to use doubled redundant strands over the edge

also remember that each time you double the strands the rope stretch will decrease, so if you use 4 strands as mentioned above, its less of a worry and more redundant

and youll be fine

;)


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By Ryan Nevius
From The Range of Light
Sep 8, 2013
Mt. Agassiz

Thanks for the link, olddog. Here's a snippet from the paper:

Looking at the data, the one thing that stands out as blindingly obvious is that webbing is awful! For a round rope, only a few fibers at a time are exposed to the rock edge, and the rope wears a few fibers at a time. For webbing, almost all the fibers are abraded on every cycle, and it fails very quickly.

The abrasion across the edge test is, in my opinion, one of the best for evaluating ropes. The test was quite consistent - see the small error bars on the chart, and this is the type of failure that worries me the most on actual rescue operations. Where abrasion along the rope should be seen at the next rope inspection, abrasion across the rope can produce immediate catastrophic failure - even at low loads like body weight. This test again clearly demonstrated that webbing is awful in abrasion.


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By Mark Pilate
Sep 9, 2013

Ryan - Just to clarify what I said is "not recommended" - using climbing ropes (dynamic) for a long top-rope anchor.

(especially since Bearbreeder has waded in to argue the tangents) as to the benefits of webbing vs static ropes I will have to get back to you after reviewing the latest tests and links posted, but it has previously been my understanding (based on Bluewater data circa 1999) backed by my own experience and tests (again on Bluewater static rope and webbing) that the static rope had greater elasticity per foot than the webbing. The static rope is more dynamic than the same length of web and thus "saws" itself more under repeated cyclic loading. This effect overrides any geometric benefit from the round rope and why I stated that webbing is better. I will review the link.

If I am wrong, I will post again tonight after checking my data. If not, I will start another pissing match with Bearbreeder :)

P.S. For what its worth (not much in fact) years ago, I used to be one of the North American reps on the UIAA safety Commission and I am a test engineer with 25 years experience (both climbing and engineering) so while I may be wrong, I am not often wrong.


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By Ryan Nevius
From The Range of Light
Sep 9, 2013
Mt. Agassiz

Thanks, Mark. I thought you were referring to static ropes. Either way, wasn't trying to start a pissing contest. Thanks for chiming in!


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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Sep 9, 2013
Bocan

I usually have a few different 20-25 sections of various mm cordellette. For a TR like this I use both 8mm and 10mm cord.


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By Mark Pilate
Sep 9, 2013

OK here is my clarification/additional two cents. I read the link (I am familiar with most of Tom's papers). I believe his data and my data are not apples to apples. In many ways they are complimentary and it depends on application and interpretation.

His data says that given identical abrasion tests, webbing holds up less than static line. I don't dispute his results. That said, my data (see caveats at the end) says that webbing may hold up better than line for a given top-rope set up. How can this be?

Reasons: At typical climber weights (my tests at 175 lbs - of pure muscle!) the webbing is less elastic than the line (supported by Tom's data in most cases) Thus, for a climber cyclicly weighting/unweighting a top rope, the webbing sees less to-and-fro motion over an edge (different test condition than Tom's...he kept the cycle-distance constant)

Caveats:
1. My tests used Bluewater static line purchased before their ISO 9000 certification --> may be more variable. Also my line had been used for a few years --> more variability
2. I used new Bluewater climb-spec 1" webbing. Tom did not specify his 1" webbing used (spec or mfr).
3. Edges tested were Sandstone and Basalt rock edges approximating 90 degrees
4. Each anchor length (2x) was 17 ft at 25 degree angle
5. My tests were less rigorously controlled, and did not go to failure on basalt test - no patience, I must confess.

If in doubt, go with Tom's data. Mine is provided with grain of salt and as another consideration. Still you should avoid using climbing rope as your std practice....

I do agree with Bearbreeder that people have been doing all sorts of things successfully for years and that this is really splitting hairs for those interested in such hair splitting. Personally I gave up giving a crap over a decade ago after studying all this stuff and deciding that climbing is actually one of the safest activities that I do.


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By Boots Ylectric
From Roselle IL
Sep 10, 2013
Tebow Climbs.  Bet you didn't know that.

Allen Sanderson wrote:
I second this suggestion to use 1" tubular webbing. It is more utilitarian than static cord. Getting the correct length is easy via a water knot.


I have to disagree on the versatility/utilitarian part. I was a top-rope only guy out at Devil's Lake (webbing galore!) before I started leading a little over a year ago. Honestly since my partner grabbed a 50 ft. static line for when we need to set up top ropes my webbing has pretty much collected dust. I think we used it once because we set up a couple of top ropes at once for people.

It's really a personal preference thing I guess though, but I know since we got that 50 footer it's been my favorite piece of toproping gear.


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By doligo
Sep 10, 2013
Jose Cuervo Fruitcups dirtbag style

Rich zz wrote:
so create a master point and use a static rope to extend it beyond the edge?


This is also acceptable. Make sure the extension is redundant and non-extendable as well. It can be achieved by say using a closed loop line (e.g. cordelette or nylon sewn sling) and placing limiting knots (overhand or fig. 8) - this way you'll have two strands and knots will prevent extending...


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By Jeff Thilking
From Knoxville, TN
Sep 10, 2013
Rap

I know this isn't an option for most, but if any of you cats have any Arborist friends who have retired rigging ropes, or arborist shops that have shorter lengths of rope, it sells for cheap. Hopefully if its a friends retired rope, a few beers, but this hog has worked well for me as anchor material (TR). A little heavy, but for cragging who cares, especially those of you who set up a damn tailgate at the cliff. I use the 3/4" and 5/8" diameters and they seem VERY resistant to abrasion.

www.samsonrope.com/Pages/Product.aspx?ProductID=507


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