Extended Rappel Variation

I'll typically extend a rappel in order and use an autoblock clipped to my leg loop when climbing in areas with high rock fall potential or when I'll be cleaning a lot of gear.

At hanging belays, things can get uncomfortable with you and your parter bumping around hanging on single tethers. These setup allows you and your partner to shift around more comfortably physically and mentally.

Pitfalls are: Less extension than classic set up but plenty IMO
less room when taking up the rope to transfer weight
does not work as well when bolts are not side by side

What do you think MP?

Begin with a standard sliding x with limiter knots. The gold attache is clipped to the climber's harness. Ovals are clipped to the bolts

The ATC gets clipped through both loops that form the master point

after loading the ATC, attaching the autoblock, and taking up the rope, the ATC moves up against the limiter knots. Weight is transferred from anchor to rope

double check everything, unclip from the bolts and rapp to the next anchor

if you're at a ledge or just want some more extention, you can unclip the atc from both loops and reclip it to just one side below the knot

Huh? Whats the original problem exactly?

Seems like a solution to a problem that doesnt exist and just turning your shit into a cluster fuck. Probably a reason this is not the standard way to do things... But sure reinvent the wheel.

This makes shifting around at a hanging belay easier and adds redundancies. It be comes really efficient when you're using a sliding x as your anchor to begin with.

Well; I like it enough that I'm going to have to mess around with it a bit. Typically when I have multiple rappels to the ground I run a double length sling through my tie-in points (or belay loop) & tie a overhand leaving me with 2 loops (one long, one short). The Atc biner goes through both loops & I use the longer loop to clip the anchor. With my setup you have to clip to a single anchor point (usually a sliding X made with a extenda-draw-both climbers use this). I could see your way being better if there are chains/multiple clip in points on the bolts.

Thanks for sharing!

Extending the device is nice.

And I like your application of tying that in with your personal tethers. I will give this a shot sometime.

Give it a try and let me know what you think. This was really inspired after climbing in el potrero and literally spending hours rappelling in the fashion which Kirk described.

I really hated punching my partner at hanging belays as we pulled and then set up rappels with 70 meters of rope.

This method makes it way easy to shift around on what little space you have and it feels nice having two tethers when you look down at hundreds of feet of exposure. But hey, i'm afraid of heights.

Several things:

1 - I don't see the point of the two krabs.
2 - Using an autoblock clipped to a leg loop is often a poorer option than using your belay loop and extending sufficiently.
3 - Using anything other than a dynamic rope tether doesn't address the risk of potentially shock-loading anchors.

When guiding or when I know I'll be doing multiple abseils I use a Beal Dynaconnexion - bealplanet.com/sport/anglai…

Reiterating to some of what has been said. If you are going to extend your rap device do not do it by girth hitching your belay loop but use the harnesss tie in points. Do not auto block to the leg loop but do use the belay loop. As far as the specific technique here I think it is a tradeoff - complicates the rapping setup but helps with the anchoring.

@EricE, why girth hitch to the tie-in points as opposed to belay loop? What's the reasoning beyond eliminating a risk link in the chain?

@Eric W - the classic argument is that girth hitching your belay loop repeatedly kinks it up and will wear out the loop. Jury is still out on that but you might as well go though the beefier and redundant tie in points.

@ Eric E and the Engineer - the set up I described requires attaching the auto block to the leg loop because the atc is less extended than your classic set up with a girth hitched 120cm sling and overhand knot. I certainly see the argument about using the belay loop - it is stronger - but the leg loop is more than adequate to hold body weight right? I'd be interested to see if there are any reports of a leg loop failing perhaps when catching a falling climber.

As I understand it, it's not suggested to tie in to your leg loop not from a strength perspective, but if you get knocked out by a falling rock but caught by your autoblock on a leg loop, you will be hanging at an inverted position.

yr fine ...

its not the way i do it ... but whatever ...

itll work in real life, just not on the intrawebs ;)

In real life I never extend, don't use an autoblock and do girth hitch my belay loop to anchor with. But on the Interwebs we discusss theory 101.

Jon H wrote:... but if you get knocked out by a falling rock but caught by your autoblock on a leg loop, you will be hanging at an inverted position.

As opposed to plummeting to your death.

Eric Engberg wrote:In real life I never extend, don't use an autoblock and do girth hitch my belay loop to anchor with. But on the Interwebs we discusss theory 101.

which is useless 101 in this case ...

hes using a body weight sling attached to 2 bolts, itll work fine ... it aint rocket science

you can "theorize" all you want about this and other stuff ... but it wont make you any climb any better or be any functionally "safer" ...

everyone does things differently ...

and no a prussic on a leg loop wont flip you over ... unless you misrigged your ATC, which in that case i suggest one should focus on your basic skills rather than intraweb "safety"

from the safety conscious AAI ...

alpineinstitute.blogspot.ca…

WTF interwebz?! Classic school of back up on rappel is either a prussic above the device, or an autoblock... wait for it... on the damn leg loop! Belay loop hold device... autobloc under device, by your hand... why make it so difficult?

Dude that came up with this... NICE! This is an easy way to deal with multiple raps on bolts.

Stephen Ackley wrote:@ Eric E and the Engineer - the set up I described requires attaching the auto block to the leg loop because the atc is less extended than your classic set up with a girth hitched 120cm sling and overhand knot. I certainly see the argument about using the belay loop - it is stronger - but the leg loop is more than adequate to hold body weight right? I'd be interested to see if there are any reports of a leg loop failing perhaps when catching a falling climber.

As mentioned, the main risk (although greatly reduced by extending) is of a leg loop prusik coming into contact with the belay and releasing if an injured abseiler inverts, which is a reasonable possibility if wearing a pack.

However, my preference is mainly based on a much simpler issue. With the prusik on your belay loop you can control your abseil with either hand which improves your ability to resolve rope tangles and/or place/remove gear.

Erik W wrote:@EricE, why girth hitch to the tie-in points as opposed to belay loop? What's the reasoning beyond eliminating a risk link in the chain?

I've had numerous discussions on this issue with fellow climbers, instructors and guides over the years and never come to a definitive decision. However, there are certain points, most people agree on:

- BOTH the tie-in points and belay loop are tested to the same minimum standard of 15kN on any UIAA/CE rated harnesses, so both are easily strong enough if the harness is in a serviceable condition (and if you have any doubts you should bin it).
- having any sling girth hitched to your belay loop on a PERMANENT basis could be a really bad idea - fabric on fabric always risks potential wear so both belay loop and sling should be inspected before and after use, but you can't do that properly unless you remove the sling.
- having a sling girth hitched around the tie-in points is likely to generate more fabric on fabric movement and taking a factor 2 fall on it (especially if it is a skinny 8mm dyneema one) COULD melt through the sling due to fabric on fabric friction as it tightens up (however a factor 2 fall could equally likely rip the belay out, break the sling at any inline knot or result in internal injuries to the climber).

The only sensible conclusion is that both methods are safe enough provided you remember two things:
- you always try to keep tight on anchors and NEVER EVER move above anchors when connected with a sling.
- you examine both sling and harness before and after every route or days climbing.

That said it would still be better not use a sling at all and use dynamic rope instead.

Stephen Ackley wrote: the classic argument is that girth hitching your belay loop repeatedly kinks it up and will wear out the loop. Jury is still out on that but you might as well go though the beefier and redundant tie in points.

I don't know about it being a classic argument, but I get what you're saying. BD did a test on a handful of belay loops after Skinner's death... interesting results. 75% cut thru = fail @ 2918 lbf. Heavy, heavy abrading = fail @ 4805 lbf.

blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

Ex-Engineer wrote: - having any sling girth hitched to your belay loop on a PERMANENT basis could be a really bad idea - fabric on fabric always risks potential wear so both belay loop and sling should be inspected before and after use, but you can't do that properly unless you remove the sling.

This is where I am. PAS permanently girth-hitched to the belay loop. Check both very regularly for wear - and you can easily check them by loosening the girth hitch and inspecting all the elements (belay loop & PAS). Been doing it this way since 2004, having gone thru four PAS systems in that time, none of which were retired due to abrasion.

My issue with girth hitching the tie-in points is 1) more moving fabric when weighting and unweighting ( =abrasion), 2) crowded tie-in when climbing with doubles. I use the PAS primarily for rapping. Great for extending the belay device. Plus, always have a "sling" on me if I need to ascend a rope after escaping the belay (with prussik loop or Tibloc).

Hey Stephen,

Got out over the weekend & messed around with your setup, It worked pretty well. If I'm on rapping bolted anchors, and only have one double sling I'll probably use it. When I have an extra sling I'll be sticking with my method, you've probably seen it before but here's a pic in case you haven't. The only advantage is that it gives you a bit more length to work with, and some increased redundancy. Thanks again for posting!

Multi-rap setup

Glad you liked the set up Kirk.

But whoah dude. That right there seems a little over complicated compared to using one tether and a knot to hold the atc in the middle-ish.

I didnt like that method myself and often threw in a second tether, hence the sliding x extention/ tether things above.

I love the all the gear on carpet pics in this thread though.

Thanks man