Explain yourself

Wave Bolt made by Bolt Products

To whoever placed this ... Thing, please explain yourself and your thinking. This was found as the last bolt on a climb at anarchy wall in clear creek. I know the area is known for people chopping and replacing bolts, but this is ridiculous. You scarred the rock, placed a bolt no climber in their right mind will use and someone will scar it more when they fix it. To me it looked like a Home Depot bolt with gorilla glue and duct tape holding it in place, when I gave it a tug, pieces of glue fell out. So to whoever placed it, great job scarring the rock, that is all you accomplished.

^ +1

What climb was that on? Just about every bolt at Anarchy was replaced last summer. Weird that someone might have replaced a bolt less than a year old when there's so much other rotting hardware in CCC.

Anarchy Wall rebolt day

Definitely looks like a Wave bolt. Haven't seen the orangeish glue before.

Interesting.

Thanks for the info, I had no idea that bolts that small could be rated well. Glue in bolts are only strong if they are placed properly though right? So in this case i will not be using it. This was found on the easy warmup at anarchy wall.

+1 on the wave bolt, this is definitely a very good piece of hardware, although the orange glue/epoxy does not look like anything I have seen used. I also find it weird that a new wave bolt has gone in to an area that got all new ASCA hardware just last summer. Not really a place someone would be practicing glue ins I would think, pretty weird...

If it's the mellow warmup down by the creek - that's weird. Those were upgraded to glueins last year, but there sure weren't any that looked that hinky...

I think they did use the hilti glue, so that's all good then. I don't remember any that had glue bubbling out and plastic/tape sticking out of the hole.

OP - especially on vertical walls, I've heard the wave bolt is pretty strong even without the adhesive. I'm sure some gluein experts can contribute more info.

Wave bolt with Hilti RE500. Def not from Home Depot.

If you can't tell the difference, what makes you think you are qualified to say if it was installed properly?

What is the black thing sticking out above the bolt?

as a wave bolt re-bolter, its hilti glue on a wave bolt... a bolt that more than doubles the UIAA standard. I use the powers stuff myself and the glue is slightly unsightly but I would whip on it...what is that black thing?

The bolt is from Bolt Products. The Hilti glue is more expensive than the Powers.
Although the climb is not overhanging, that last bolt placement is on a small facet that faces downward at ~30° IIRC. Black Gorilla brand duct tape with a small slit in it kept the glue in place until it dried, and unfortunately for the cosmetics, there is some residue from that process. The original bolt was poorly placed in that it wasn't perpendicular to the rock so the hanger was bent. Re-using the same hole was the only way to avoid significantly changing the crux protection (it would have had to go over the lip where shorter climbers could not reach.)
The original bolt was removed using a diamond hollow core bit that removes a small amount of rock around the 3/8" bolt until it exposes the collar. It's an expensive and laborious method, but I was testing to see how viable it is in the field. The bits are fragile and break if you don't apply perfectly even pressure along the same axis as the hole. $65 per bit. Not easy while on rappel unless you can get some leverage from good gear nearby.
The method that works well to remove stud bolts using a modified coupler nut might not have worked in this situation anyway - you still need a perpendicular face to use to pry it out after you have sufficiently ground down the wedge. The mismatched angle would have broken the bolt, and the new bolt location would have changed the crux clip.
To recap:
-This bolt placement may be legitimately ugly, but it is much stronger than the mechanical bolts nearby.
strength tests
-The same hole was reused in order to keep the original clipping stance and not change the route, at the expense of about 45 minutes spent on one hole.
-The crag upgrade was a massive effort that used volunteer time from a lot of people. I had to leave that day immediately after placing that glue-in and had to hand off most of the cleanup operation. I have not found the time to return to that climb, and I sincerely apologize for any distress the excess glue has caused.

Matt H wrote:Don't talk to me unless its neutral or encouraging. People need to learn how to spend less time pushing others down and spend more time picking them up.

Hilarious.

i saw that too, classic

Gregger Man wrote: it is much stronger than the mechanical bolts nearby. strength tests

I'm no mechanical engineer, but I've read the docs for the powerbolts. If I'm reading it right, the 2.5" ss powerbolts have an ultimate breaking strength of 8225 lbs (36.5 kN) in 4,000 psi (27.6 n/mm2) concrete.

IMHO - it's fair to say that both types of anchors used at Anarchy are f*ing strong, but the trope that glue-ins are "much stronger", especially in the basalt of CCC, might not be accurate.

I'm sure that all the MP engineers (armchair, civil, EE, mechanical, and other) will commence to arguing mightily. Until the Wave bolt and Powers Bolts are subjected to the exact same testing methodology in the same media, we're all blowing smoke. They're both very strong anchors, and I don't believe that the rebolting community needs to divide itself even more when the truth is we're using comparably strong anchors that are a vast improvement over the 3/8" rusting shite that we're replacing.

I'll throw in some 30' geosupport tie-backs, just to be sure

Mike- I agree that glue-in bolts aren't necessarily stronger in every application. I was trying to reassure the OP that this bolt is more than adequate to catch any whipper he'd care to take on it. In this particular situation a glue-in was the only option for re-using that hole since the core bit creates a 9/16" diameter hole which is too big for a mechanical bolt with a standard hanger. The bad angle of the hole relative to the face was another reason that this style of bolt was the only viable replacement option.

John Wilder wrote:I recently rebolted an entire crag with them, and with the right systems, you can install one every 60-90 seconds if you're efficient.

Their clean design also alows them to be loaded into a magazine and fired at a high rate out of a bolt gun when set to full auto. Too bad these weren't around when they made "Cliff Hanger."

OP,

CLick the link below. Scroll to the bottom of the screen, which would you rather whip on?

Bolts

OP. Apology?

Waiting .....

OP, it would seem like things were explained. If you don't trust a bolt that Greg has placed, you might as well never clip another one, anywhere. Perhaps you should remove the "homemade bolt" label from your photo before others that aren't well versed in fixed hardware see it and consume some bad information.

Gregger Man wrote:The bolt is from Bolt Products. The Hilti glue is more expensive than the Powers....

Here's a quote from a bolt manufacturer about the Hilti RE-500. The redactions are mine.

"I have tested redacted bolts glued in to milled steel blocks. Redacted. The hole in the steel block is not very porous and is very smooth sided (unlike a hole drilled in rock) and I have never had a failure of the resin (shaft pulling out). In fact I can't even get the broken shaft out with a 10 ton press (100kn). I have to heat the steel block so much that the resin actually sets on fire and the shaft falls out eventually or with the persuasion of a big hammer and 10mm bar.

I have to use a steel block as even a huge sandstone block will be split at a fifth of the load these bolts take - I know from experience. When the stone block broke, I found that the RE-500 penetrated at least 3mm in to the Gritstone.

Redacted but what I do know is that one of my bolts was glued in as normal with RE-500 on a vertical wall and when the rope was pulled it hit a bolt on the way down before the resin had cured and pulled it out a little. It was not flush with the rock and the resin cured with the bolt at a slight angle. A friend of mine thought he would twist it out with a huge steel bar through the eye and to his amazement the eye did actually turn. He assumed it was turning in the resin as it went more than 180 degrees and then surprised him by the shaft shearing flush with the rock under extreme torque. The shaft did not turn in the RE-500 resin."

FWIW, I use Hilti RE-500 exclusively.

OP's tag line under his profile:

"Guideline #1: don't be a jerk. Unfortunately some people only know how to be jerks. Don't talk to me unless its neutral or encouraging. People need to learn how to spend less time pushing others down and spend more time picking them up."

There was certainly nothing neutral or encouraging about your post... Maybe do your homework next time before putting your foot in your mouth.