Ethics : lowering vs rapping

So I'm a bit confused... I was told the ethics of climbing is to rap off of any fixed gear at the top of the route. My partner and I just visited Lander and saw most people lowering. When I asked some locals I was told" it's sport climbing; it's ok to lower because the anchors here get replaced every ten years." I always abide by the ethics of the local crag, so I'm wondering... Are most sport destinations now of the mindset that lowering is ok?

Varies place to place, and depends on anchor hardware. Heed local custom/preference and you'll be fine.

Or do a search and see all the flame wars over it here on MP forum. Yet another topic that has been beaten to death here

Its definitely dependent on the anchor type. Sometimes it is in your best interest to rappel, some anchors are thin and narrow and could be detrimental to your rope in the long run

As will be mentioned many times, it varies place to place. But if I had to make a general rule, I would say, regarding sport crags specifically: rapping is great, lowering is fine. Worth mentioning is that sometimes lowering is the only option when using a single rope because rapping would require two ropes.

mountainhick wrote: Or do a search and see all the flame wars over it here on MP forum. Yet another topic that has been beaten to death here

Just like this thread is likely to turn into a flame war! Sit back and enjoy.

On Mt. Lemmon here in Tucson AZ we leave Quicklinks with carabiners on our anchors. We ask that people use their own draws on the anchors until the last person has redpointed or top-roped the route then the last person is welcome to lower off.

FrankPS wrote: Just like this thread is likely to turn into a flame war! Sit back and enjoy.

Yipee!

Leslie McG wrote:So I'm a bit confused... I was told the ethics of climbing is to rap off of any fixed gear at the top of the route. My partner and I just visited Lander and saw most people lowering. When I asked some locals I was told" it's sport climbing; it's ok to lower because the anchors here get replaced every ten years." I always abide by the ethics of the local crag, so I'm wondering... Are most sport destinations now of the mindset that lowering is ok?

Obviously it depends on the area and you can't make a blanket statement, but I'd venture to say that in most sport climbing areas it is acceptable if not preferable to lower rather than rap. As always, toprope through your own gear, but the last person to climb normally just lowers off of sport routes.

Zac.St.Jules wrote: Worth mentioning is that sometimes lowering is the only option when using a single rope because rapping would require two ropes.

Ummm? I've seen the opposite case on very steep or wandering lines, where you could rap it on a single rope but not lower (and not in sport climbing areas), but not the other way round. I did just wake up, but pretty sure that half a rope is still half a rope.

If you find leaver biners up top, and especially when they are steel, or just chains, it is totally acceptable to lower off. For glue ins, ask one of the locals, but I personally avoid lowering off an anchor with singular points that are trafficked by biners as I like to isolate the surfaces, biner to rope and biner to bolt. For the sake of the rope if nothing else.

Most routes that I would ask that a leader rap down are because of sharp lips or sandpaper surfaces and the like that would result in rope damage.

That said, TR'ing and lowering are vastly different in this regard. Sounds like you are playing to the safe side, and thus it isn't news to you...

Will S wrote: Ummm? I've seen the opposite case on very steep or wandering lines, where you could rap it on a single rope but not lower (and not in sport climbing areas), but not the other way round. I did just wake up, but pretty sure that half a rope is still half a rope.

Think about a tall pitch that's longer than a half rope length, with a midway lower off. You lower to the midway point, which may be close to the rope end for the belayer, go in straight to the midway anchor, pull the rope, and lower through the midway anchor to the ground.

But then again, you could rap to the midway anchor in that case too.

Will S wrote: Ummm? I've seen the opposite case on very steep or wandering lines, where you could rap it on a single rope but not lower (and not in sport climbing areas), but not the other way round. I did just wake up, but pretty sure that half a rope is still half a rope.

If the route is very steep and uses the full length of the rope and the ground drops away from the belayer, a rap would leave the climber hanging in the air. Whereas if the belayer had lowered the climber, because he is belaying from higher ground, it gives enough length to lower the climber.

A good example of this is orange crush cliff at rumney.

Yeah I figured this topic has been covered infinite times before! And I certainly know better than to TR a route on fixed gear...but at my former local crag the last person to climb raps...period. In Lander when I saw shunts and muzzy hooks I lowered, but when I saw rap rings I rapped. I climb a ton of trad and not too much sport, and clearly the ethics do vary by location.

For MOST sport climbing areas in the US, it is acceptable to lower or rap. On very steep or traversing routes where cleaning is difficult, lowering is much easier and safer (and typically encouraged). You will almost never see a 5.12+ sport climber rapping off a route...

It's never acceptable to toprope directly through the fixed gear.

Zac.St.Jules wrote: If the route is very steep and uses the full length of the rope and the ground drops away from the belayer, a rap would leave the climber hanging in the air. Whereas if the belayer had lowered the climber, because he is belaying from higher ground, it gives enough length to lower the climber. A good example of this is orange crush cliff at rumney.

Gotcha. Seems pretty rare, especially since the extra distance traveled on a very steep line (i.e. length of climbing vs. vertical gain) would partly offset that, but clearly it happens as you noted.

I've found the opposite case several times where you could rap a route with a 60 but couldn't lower with it. Then there is the std practice on longer lines at my local sport crag where they use a "lower-pull-lower" with intermediate anchor scheme, but you could easily rap those.

I make the choice depending on the accepted practice in the area, what hardware is on the anchor, how difficult it is to clean, and whether I might want to re-climb a move or sequence or brush holds/tick marks on the way down. A place like the ORG, even with fat mussy hooks, I try not to lower since the grit there eats metal like crazy. Other places where hardware is easy to replace, and I've got my own money into hardware there, I lower.

This may develop into a flame fest reunion. And I'm stuck on an iPhone!

I believe there are two issues involved, safety and anchor wear.

IMHO, climber dropped accidents could be completely prevented by adoption of 2 practices. Always tie a knot in the end of the rope and always lower the climber.
The knot covers the case when the rope is shorter or the climb is longer than expected.
Always lowering means the belayer NEVER takes the climber off belay, so there is NEVER the risk of miscommunication. It is (almost) always possible to lower, but rapping doesn't work on steep or traversing routes. Sometimes lowering and sometimes rapping inevitably means somebody will get dropped because human communication is fallible. But again, if you always lower, the climber is NEVER off belay.

Greg D always raps, Believing it to be safer for the climber. I agree, but only if you never climb steep or traversing sport routes. In those situations you will have to lower. And you will be trusting your life to the hope that you and your belayer are working the same plan.

As for anchor wear, I agree that lowering puts somewhat more wear on the anchors than rapping. I'm willing to accept that wear in the interest of safety. In the long run, as anchors get replaced with more practical, easily replaceable components (eg rapid links) this issue will be moot.

Finally, I would ask the folks who rap just to preserve the anchors, why don't you feed the rope through just one of the anchors? Seems like that would cut your wear in half at a very slight decrease in safety.

Lowering may also contribute significantly more rope wear depending on the route and rock type.

adrenalated wrote:For MOST sport climbing areas in the US, it is acceptable to lower or rap. On very steep or traversing routes where cleaning is difficult, lowering is much easier and safer (and typically encouraged). You will almost never see a 5.12+ sport climber rapping off a route... It's never acceptable to toprope directly through the fixed gear.

This.

Mark E Dixon wrote:This may develop into a flame fest reunion. And I'm stuck on an iPhone! I believe there are two issues involved, safety and anchor wear. IMHO, climber dropped accidents could be completely prevented by adoption of 2 practices. Always tie a knot in the end of the rope and always lower the climber. The knot covers the case when the rope is shorter or the climb is longer than expected. Always lowering means the belayer NEVER takes the climber off belay, so there is NEVER the risk of miscommunication. It is (almost) always possible to lower, but rapping doesn't work on steep or traversing routes. Sometimes lowering and sometimes rapping inevitably means somebody will get dropped because human communication is fallible. But again, if you always lower, the climber is NEVER off belay. Greg D always raps, Believing it to be safer for the climber. I agree, but only if you never climb steep or traversing sport routes. In those situations you will have to lower. And you will be trusting your life to the hope that you and your belayer are working the same plan. As for anchor wear, I agree that lowering puts somewhat more wear on the anchors than rapping. I'm willing to accept that wear in the interest of safety. In the long run, as anchors get replaced with more practical, easily replaceable components (eg rapid links) this issue will be moot. Finally, I would ask the folks who rap just to preserve the anchors, why don't you feed the rope through just one of the anchors? Seems like that would cut your wear in half at a very slight decrease in safety.

You can say the same thing if you ALWAYS rap, then you're not risking miscommunication. If there IS a miscommunication, rapping is clearly safer. If I intend to lower when my partner thinks I'm rapping, I may deck and die. If I intend to rap when my partner thinks I'm lowering, no harm done at all.

I'm confused about your last sentence - are you suggesting that lowering through one rap ring or chain link puts less wear on the rope or gear than rapping off two? I'm not sure that's true - and regardless, removing redundancy in an anchor system when you are rapping or lowering and completely dependent on that anchor seems like a significant reduction in safety and a terrible idea. There is a reason bolted anchors have two points.

Em Cos wrote: You can say the same thing if you ALWAYS rap, then you're not risking miscommunication.

This is not true. There are many routes where rapping is impossible due to the overhanging or traversing nature of the route. This is the reason that the always lower mentality is safer. If you are in the mentality of always rap, then climb a route where rapping is impossible, it is a very real concern that your partner may take you off belay thinking you are going to rap while you think that they realize that they have to lower you. I can't think of a similar scenario where rapping is the only option (speaking of single pitch cragging obviously).

Em Cos wrote: You can say the same thing if you ALWAYS rap, then you're not risking miscommunication. If there IS a miscommunication, rapping is clearly safer. If I intend to lower when my partner thinks I'm rapping, I may deck and die. If I intend to rap when my partner thinks I'm lowering, no harm done at all.

The point is, because of the realities of cleaning steep or wandering routes, rapping is not always an option. Sooner or later, you WILL have to lower. So, no, you can't always rap, and therefore communication will sooner or later become a factor.

Trying cleaning something at almost any crag with routes 5.11 or harder in the Red River Gorge on rappel and let me know how it goes.