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Epinephrine Rescue

Original Post
Xavier Wasiak · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 635
lvmpdsar.blogspot.com/2012/…

The article says the party "lost the route" on several occasions. Other than maybe on the descent, where do you think people can get off route on Epi?
MTN MIA · · Vail · Joined May 2006 · Points: 405

Pretty hard to get lost in the chimney pitches.... And above the tower I thought the route was pretty obvious. Maybe during the traverse at the top??? Naw that doesn't make sense either. Maybe at the bottom before the chimney???? Naw not there. If you find out do post.

a d · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 5

Man, that's got to be embarassing to have your ass hauled up the top uninjured. Glad to hear they are safe.

Does anyone know what sort of financial liability a person incurs? Do people generally receive a bill in the mail for the rescue services, or does the rescue group just assume it can't be paid?

Jim R · · Vegas! · Joined Apr 2007 · Points: 5
alexdavis wrote:Does anyone know what sort of financial liability a person incurs?
No financial liability, no bill...
AWinters · · NH · Joined Apr 2007 · Points: 5,120

my buddy and i got off route on the pitch off the black tower heading for the elephant's trunk - we were too far left and it really screwed things up. that's the only place I can see losing your way...

Dylan Hettinger · · Boulder, CO · Joined May 2012 · Points: 5
alexdavis wrote:Man, that's got to be embarassing to have your ass hauled up the top uninjured. Glad to hear they are safe. Does anyone know what sort of financial liability a person incurs? Do people generally receive a bill in the mail for the rescue services, or does the rescue group just assume it can't be paid?
It varies by state, but generally outside cases of extreme or criminal negligence, the SAR group assumes financial responsibility. In Colorado, if the rescued individual has a COSAR card, the SAR is eligible for reimbursement from what I've always assumed was a state fund.
Xavier Wasiak · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 635

My brother and his son got stuck off-roading in the desert once and got a free helicopter ride to safety by SAR. Pretty cool.

Robert Fielding · · Thousand Oaks, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 195

Sounds like negligence to me... The party wasn't even injured. If you can make it up to your high point, you can get get back down. Yes, you probably would have to leave some gear, but it's better than putting the SAR team in danger. Although i'm sure they had a lot of fun.

I obviously don't know all of the relevant information of what the climbers were going through, but if they were just dehydrated then what a bunch of school boy bitches!

NickinCO · · colorado · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 155
Rob Fielding wrote:Sounds like negligence to me... The party wasn't even injured. If you can make it up to your high point, you can get get back down. Yes, you probably would have to leave some gear, but it's better than putting the SAR team in danger. Although i'm sure they had a lot of fun. I obviously don't know all of the relevant information of what the climbers were going through, but if they were just dehydrated then what a bunch of school boy bitches!
They WERE from Ohio...
Tom Caldwell · · Clemson, S.C. · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 3,623
Nick Mardi wrote: They WERE from Ohio...
Maybe they thought RR was the same as RRG. Getting on a Grade IV with no self-rescue skills does not sound like a good idea. I agree about bailing. Couldn't they have just built an anchor on that ledge they were rescued from? How did the leader bring the 2nd up if there were no anchor possibilities? Calling SAR to save yourself a few pieces of pro is pretty bad ethics. I like the idea of them getting billed in this instance, because they weren't competent enough to be on this serious of a route.
Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

I do very much appreciate SAR Teams and all the hard work they do.

What I believe is unfortunate in this situation is how fast they responded to what I would call "non urgent". The climbers may have been tired, cold and thirsty. But, tough shit. Do some spooning and wait for daylight. Then, get yourself out of the mess you got yourself into.

Knowing that SAR will bail you out after being lost for a few hours will only attract more of this behavior, imo.

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
Greg D wrote:I do very much appreciate SAR Teams and all the hard work they do. What I believe is unfortunate in this situation is how fast they responded to what I would call "non urgent". The climbers may have been tired, cold and thirsty. But, tough shit. Do some spooning and wait for daylight. Then, get yourself out of the mess you got yourself into. Knowing that SAR will bail you out after being lost for a few hours will only attract more of this behavior, imo.
+1.

And as far as who pays the bill, it varies from state to state and also depends on who is performing the rescue. The Coast Guard and the NPS obviously don't charge anyone anything. If I recall correctly, the total cost for NPS SAR each year works out to a few pennies per visitor.

I remember when I lived in CO they had signs at all the exit gates at ski resorts saying that rescue would be slow and COSTLY! I don't know exactly what those signs meant, but the above comment about COSAR membership is correct. Pay a few bucks a year and you are guaranteed that you will not be billed if you need rescue.

A few of the states in the northeast have laws allowing them to bill you, but I don't think they always do. I personally know one person who has been billed and did pay for his rescue in New Hampshire.
Canon · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2011 · Points: 0

Sigh...CORSAR cards are NOT rescue insurance. They are more like a donation to the state SAR fund. They do not absolve holders of legal or financial liability. If you really want to CYA, be a member of the American alpine club or carry rescue insurance like what its available through SPOT and similar groups. Oh, and most importantly, have AAA!

Dylan Hettinger · · Boulder, CO · Joined May 2012 · Points: 5
Gannon wrote:Sigh...CORSAR cards are NOT rescue insurance... most importantly, have AAA!
Right, COSAR doesn't have anything to do with your liability, just enables reimbursement for the SAR team from a state-wide fund.

See:
http://www.alpinerescueteam.org/index.php/supportdonatearticle/corsararticle/

Of note, re CO rescue, from the link:

"there is no bill for search and rescue team's services in Colorado."

EDIT: mp's link thing doesn't work... but you can Google just as well as I can.
Todd99 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 0

I'm from Florida, my buddy and I got stuck overnight on this route. BUT we didn't need a rescue. We were on this in mid march a few years ago. It got cold enough that I would wake-up from my teeth chattering too much. We got off route too but we weren't injured. Like it was suggested by others we sucked it up and got ourselves out of the mess we got into. We realized where we went wrong and I still want to go back and climb it the right way (not spending the night).

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
Gannon wrote:Sigh...CORSAR cards are NOT rescue insurance. They are more like a donation to the state SAR fund. They do not absolve holders of legal or financial liability. If you really want to CYA, be a member of the American alpine club or carry rescue insurance like what its available through SPOT and similar groups. Oh, and most importantly, have AAA!
I didn't mean to imply that CORSAR was insurance. I understood that it was just a recognition that you plan to be doing activities that could create the need for rescue and that you were donating to the funding for that. But yes, AAC is a great start to some help in paying bills. It is also a great way to support climbing as a whole. Everyone should be a member. I am, and I don't even live in the US! (PS, also a member of the Carolina Climbers Coalition, and the BMC).
Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

Notwithstanding the whole corsar stuff which is just a Colorado thing, the worthiness of a rescuee is something that will just not be considered.

Shit happens, anyone that asks for help will have aid willingly rendered. It's really not anyone's concern here. Lessons learned can be helpful, but they are lessons in education, not whether or not aid should be rendered.

Dirty Gri Gri, or is it GiGi? · · Vegas · Joined May 2005 · Points: 4,115

Hmm, I wish we could hear their full side of the story. Seems silly to endanger the lives of rescuers because you're a bit dehydrated, and scared. Were they at least treated for heat stroke, or something a little serious? I suppose it can be dangerous to hang in your harness for too long, but it was reported that they found a ledge. The temps at night are wonderful in BVC this time of year. Oh well, glad they're okay, and no one got hurt with the rescue. Personally, I'm pretty sure I'd have to be near death to call for a rescue, unless I have a child with me, or I'm super duper lost in a remote area, although my cell phone probably wouldn't work in those places anyway. My BF does has a HAM radio, as we do a lot of remote 4WD stuff, but we'd have to be pretty bad off to call rescue, and have at least tried, and exhausted all of our options ourselves first. Be prepared, and safe everyone!

Just my worthless 4G.

Bobby Hanson · · Spokane, WA · Joined Oct 2001 · Points: 1,230
Buff Johnson wrote:Notwithstanding the whole corsar stuff which is just a Colorado thing, the worthiness of a rescuee is something that will just not be considered. Shit happens, anyone that asks for help will have aid willingly rendered. It's really not anyone's concern here. Lessons learned can be helpful, but they are lessons in education, not whether or not aid should be rendered.
For the win!
Steve Blevins · · Central Coast, CA · Joined Sep 2007 · Points: 260

"the worthiness of a rescuee is something that will just not be considered. Shit happens, anyone that asks for help will have aid willingly rendered."

That's true from the view point of SAR. It does not take into account if requesters of aid valued the lives of the rescuers against their inconvenience or life threatening situation, as GiGi points out. Many here have pointed out, including GiGi, they are not in a rush to judgment but would like to know the whole story.

"It's really not anyone's concern here. Lessons learned can be helpful, but they are lessons in education, not whether or not aid should be rendered."

And here you are so wrong. Wait until you have your climb in the canyon stopped because someone got their rope stuck, the helicopter comes in 4 times and the requesters walked out. Do you think you would be concerned if a helicopter rescue went bad while you were on the wall and you were injured or your partner killed from debris? Or perhaps you had a life threatening situation, but the helo was tied up on a non injury rescue, and your buddy dies because SAR can't get to him soon enough or at all? So it is the legitimate concern of any who climb the walls.

I have spent a night out on Epinephrine. And a night out on Sacagawea, in the Wind River range, with an injured climber I thought was going to die. I have a little more than just a virtual acquaintance with potential rescue situations.

And kBobby, "For the win!". Really.

The suggestion for charging for deemed frivolous rescues is a simplistic overreaction, that would cause no end of grief for the entire climbing community. Fortunately, it is extremely unlikely unless a enough climbers call for rescue to require more equipment and manpower.

Calling into question the validity of a non injury request is not the same as questioning whether a rescue should be made. Equating the two is dangerous logic that can lead to poor decision making, thinking that 'a rescue is no big deal', and 'calling for a rescue is nobody's business but mine'

Glenn Schuler · · Monument, Co. · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,330
Steve Blevins wrote: Do you think you would be concerned if a helicopter rescue went bad while you were on the wall and you were injured or your partner killed from debris?
You're really reaching for shit on that one - someone's been watching Cliffhanger a few too many times apparently.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Nevada
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