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Emergency hauling with an ATC Guide?
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By NickinCO
From colorado
Nov 11, 2010
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.

I'm familiar with building 3:1's using a grigri but I can't figure out how to haul with my new atc guide using a prusik and a redirect. Any tips? What are you using for a progress capture device? I tried hauling with it today in guide mode but it didn't work that well.


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By kBobby
From Spokane, WA
Nov 11, 2010

I would recommend using a Garda Hitch.
1. Set up the Garda on the brake side of the ATC Guide.
2. Set a Prussik on the climber side of the ATC Guide.
3. Release slack through the ATC Guide until you are on the Prussik.
4. Remove the ATC Guide from the system.
5. Haul.

This is easily adapted to 3:1 or 5:1.


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By bwalt822
Nov 11, 2010

What does your garda hitch accomplish that the ATC in guide mode can't?

You need to provide more details on how you were trying to use the ATC guide.


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By NickinCO
From colorado
Nov 11, 2010
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.

bwalt822 wrote:
What does your garda hitch accomplish that the ATC in guide mode can't? You need to provide more details on how you were trying to use the ATC guide.



Using it in guide mode to belay a 2nd.


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By JonathanC
From CO
Nov 11, 2010

Towards the end of this video there's a section where he demonstrates using a prusik and reverso as a ratchet...



Sorry it's 7 minutes long, but it provides a clear demonstration of what I think you're looking for.


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By NickinCO
From colorado
Nov 11, 2010
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.

Towards the end of this video there's a section where he demonstrates using a prusik and reverso as a ratchet...

>


Great video! I searched youtube before posting but couldn't find anything. This is actually exactly how I tried it although I didn't have much of a load on the end. I'll have to try it again with a heavier load and see if it works. The problem was the rope wasn't running through the guide after hauling.


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By Rick Blair
From Denver
Nov 11, 2010
This is a novel auto blocking belay device.  I think it works quite well, depending on rope thickness and sheath quality, it belays very smooth.  Great to lower with.  You gotta love over engineering.  $3 at a gear swap!

I have used a reverso3 this way to get a friends girlfriend past a few moves on a climb when she froze.
"A few moves" turned out to be a 50 foot haul where I don't think she helped at all. I forgot to use gloves and I ended up covering both my hands with blisters. Fun Fun Fun. I was using a Petzl microscender instead of a friction knot.
Moral of the story.... I don't think its supposed to be easy, more to help someone get past a move or 2 not haul them up an entire pitch.
Unless I misunderstand what you want, there is no redirect involved, basically just a Z pulley using the device in plaquette mode to capture progress.

Petzl catalogue page 53 diagram f.
www.petzl.com/catalogue/Petzl-Sport-catalog-2010-GB.pdf


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By NickinCO
From colorado
Nov 11, 2010
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.

If you're belaying the 2nd off the anchor you're going to be pulling up to haul. The redirect was simply a carabiner in the top shelf to be able to pull down or attach a foot loop/body weight to haul with. Sounds like that would have saved your hands some. Or maybe that's what took too much weight off the ATC so the rope wasn't passing through smoothly. It would have probably worked better with the redirect biner in the masterpoint. I'll have to mess with it again tomorrow.


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By Will Gordon
From Boulder, CO
Nov 11, 2010

The ATC guide in guide mode will act as a ratchet ("progress capture device") in much the same way as a gri-gri or a second friction hitch.

To set it up, put a friction hitch such as a prussik or autobloc on the climber's strand, clip a biner to it, clip the brake strand through it and pull. He demonstrates it in the last minute of the video.

There is increased friction through the guide, so a 3:1 won't seem the same as it does with a gri-gri. If you are hauling dead weight, you will almost certainly need to use a 5:1 or a 6:1.

Some people like to redirect the strand they are pulling through the anchor so that they can pull down to raise. I prefer to pull up so that I can use my legs...much less tiring.


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By NickinCO
From colorado
Nov 11, 2010
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.

Will Gordon wrote:
The ATC guide in guide mode will act as a ratchet ("progress capture device") in much the same way as a gri-gri or a second friction hitch. To set it up, put a friction hitch such as a prussik or autobloc on the climber's strand, clip a biner to it, clip the brake strand through it and pull. He demonstrates it in the last minute of the video. There is increased friction through the guide, so a 3:1 won't seem the same as it does with a gri-gri. If you are hauling dead weight, you will almost certainly need to use a 5:1 or a 6:1. Some people like to redirect the strand they are pulling through the anchor so that they can pull down to raise. I prefer to pull up so that I can use my legs...much less tiring.


If you pull down you can build a foot loop or better yet clip it into your harness and use your body weight.


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By Evan1984
Nov 11, 2010

Rick Blair wrote:
Moral of the story.... I don't think its supposed to be easy, more to help someone get past a move or 2 not haul them up an entire pitch.


Exactly! Cinches, gris, guide, reversos all work for this, but they all SUCK for long distances. They work as "ratchets" but they also put a lot of friction in the system. This is why big wallers used a pulley with a cam to haul pigs.

If your experience with doing this is that is worked, but not well...Well, it worked about as well as it will work.

One trick if the second is not far away from the anchors is to lower the brake strand down to him in a giant bight, and have him clip that into his belay loop. Now, take the free end of that bight and redirect it into the top anchor. That way, he can pull down with you.

If you have trouble envisioning this, I can email a diagram.

Evan


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By NickinCO
From colorado
Nov 11, 2010
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.

Evan Horvath aka Evan1984 wrote:
Exactly! Cinches, gris, guide, reversos all work for this, but they all SUCK for long distances. They work as "ratchets" but they also put a lot of friction in the system. This is why big wallers used a pulley with a cam to haul pigs. If your experience with doing this is that is worked, but not well...Well, it worked about as well as it will work. One trick if the second is not far away from the anchors is to lower the brake strand down to him in a giant bight, and have him clip that into his belay loop. Now, take the free end of that bight and redirect it into the top anchor. That way, he can pull down with you. If you have trouble envisioning this, I can email a diagram. Evan



That sounds like a pretty good idea. Normally when hauling (not climbing) I'm using a petzl ID/shunt/fixe for a 3:1 and it's pretty easy, maybe I'm just spoiled.


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By Rick Blair
From Denver
Nov 11, 2010
This is a novel auto blocking belay device.  I think it works quite well, depending on rope thickness and sheath quality, it belays very smooth.  Great to lower with.  You gotta love over engineering.  $3 at a gear swap!

Full disclosure, I had put rope drag in my system on purpose in that example. I placed a piece of pro so she would not follow the rope into terrain that was too hard for her. That was my only real world use. I have practiced hauling people with this before and it is better w/o the drag but not much better.


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By David Hertel
From Sitka
Nov 12, 2010
Climbing a coulior of steep snow on the First Ascent of: The Ship's Prow, near Skagway, Ak

Nick Mardirosian wrote:
If you pull down you can build a foot loop or better yet clip it into your harness and use your body weight.

also, pulling downward in a rescue situation can save you alot of work if the "rescuee" is conscious. once the tail end gets within reach of the victim, they can aid your efforts by pulling with you to increase the speed of rescue. again, only if they are awake and able to help

also, the idea of redirecting the pully system, as i understand it, is that each time the rope doubles back, something like 50% of the dead weight is reduced. please correct me if im mistaken


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By NickinCO
From colorado
Nov 12, 2010
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.

a redirect is not going to reduce the load any only "redirect" the direction of pull. To lighten the load you need mechanical advantage.


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By Evan1984
Nov 12, 2010

David Hertel wrote:
also, the idea of redirecting the pully system, as i understand it, is that each time the rope doubles back, something like 50% of the dead weight is reduced. please correct me if im mistaken


In a perfect world, a 2:1 would cut it in half. A 3:1 to a third etc etc.

BUT, every system has friction which makes it not quite so advantageous. Rolling pulleys reduce friction. Shear reduction devices do to a lesser extent. Just running the rope over the tight bend of a carabiner adds a lot of friction relatively.

If you plan on hauling like this a lot, you can get a very simple plastic pulley from petzl that fits onto an oval biner. Or, DMM makes a carabiner with a built in pulley called a revolver.

For the average short haul situation though, carabiners are fine. Just remember that everytime you redirect you add friction, so there becomes a point where you work against yourself.


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By Buff Johnson
Nov 12, 2010
smiley face

Given the title of this post being an emergency, basically do the best you can to keep yourself and the system safe, doing no further harm; My first thought is if it were an emergency and there was time to plan out and implement a dead-weighted uphaul, there's certainly time to hit the PLB, make a phone call, &/or yell for assistance. Most hurt people don't want to be touched or jostled around as they know their bodies better than anyone and uphauling is going to be a lot of movement and bouncing; but maybe the urgent move is the right one, it's a matter of assessment where every situation is different. However reading the OP & responses, seems more like a convenience matter to me as just a partner having some troubles with a section of terrain.


Dave, it depends on your direction of travel; the reason why you're thinking of a load reduction by redirect is by doing a lowering, whereas an uphaul this friction would then work against you. Maybe the redirect you're thinking is more going from a 3:1, to a 5 or more; in which adding mechanical advantage is different than the redirect.

Don't know if anyone brought this up but think about the dynamic rope and edge terrain; they work against being efficient also, edge mitigation probably being the most critical for system safety assuming the anchor is solid. Somethings I might do differently than with the video posted is not taking away the mainline from the anchor and putting the climber on the accessory cord only. I'd rather keep the mainline in the anchor system, if the knot pass is needed, just tie the munter-mule or install the ratchet on the backside of the knot. Another is using a neutrino where really an hms locker would be a better idea, when you're hauling that biner will see a fair amount of action.

One trick I do with the uphaul is to bring those DMM pulley biners which help a little bit with the tractor(s); as Evan also is using. The Guide has worked for me as a capture though it's not the most efficient, it's been effective enough for me to do partner hauls if needed to at least get out of a terrain problem.

Some of this may also be better served as pre-planning positions before the haul; so you can safely get larger/more effective resets. Maybe a load transfer to a better anchor for position. Something else you can do is use your body to haul; but watch your rope over the edge and use something to pad the edge if you have one. You can fail your system if you overtax it.


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By Larry S
Nov 12, 2010
The wife and I road-trippin on the Connie.

Mark Nelson wrote:
The Guide has worked for me as a capture though it's not the most efficient, it's been effective enough for me to do partner hauls if needed to at least get out of a terrain problem.


One of the first times i took my wife (then just my girlfriend) on multipitch, I got her in a little over her head. I almost always belay in guide mode. I had a tibloc with me and set up a quick Z-pulley reduction and was able to give her a bit of a "power belay" to get her through a hard part. I don't know that I'd want to do a full-on haul that way though, there is alot of friction. Definitely worth-while to know how to do it in a pinch though.

I suppose you could do a 2:1 ratchet system if you've got enough gear to build it and just use the atc guide as a capture device; it's unweighted when you pull the rope thru. Just sub out the protraxxion shown in this picture here Without pulleys, i don't know that this system will be any more efficient, at least the rope isn't rubbing on itself and the belay device as you try to lift. (note - i've never done this or used that haul system)


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By Derek Doucet
Nov 12, 2010

This video actually shows a significant error.

One should really build the second munter before popping and removing the first. This avoids ever having your partner's life entirely dependent upon a single friction hitch, and takes no more time then the method demonstrated.


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By Buff Johnson
Nov 12, 2010
smiley face

I wouldn't call it as much a significant error with the cord size he's using. But yes, I'm more in the habit of keeping the mainline in the anchor system, previously posted. When you switch to something like 5mm for rescue cord, then I'd be more critical as the cord is intended to be accessory to the mainline taking the load.


I kinda chuckled at the naming connotation & this would have worked with 100% effectiveness in winter technical terrain given that team in question didn't have the solid anchor to begin with, so load transfer & hauling are out of the question; nor would anyone know without additional people communicating they would have enough to complete the entire lowering to safely unweight the system before coming to the system's terminus. Further to mention, Luebben developed this method of load releasable transfer & baselining about twenty or more some odd years ago, but it is a catchy name though.


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By Bryan Gilmore
From Your Mama
Nov 12, 2010
Beagle

What is "emergency hauling"? I've been climbing for over 20 years and have never had to do this, should I be worried?


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By NickinCO
From colorado
Nov 12, 2010
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.

Beagle wrote:
What is "emergency hauling"? I've been climbing for over 20 years and have never had to do this, should I be worried?


Wouldn't want you to worry too much! Labeled "emergency" I guess because if I was planning on doing any hauling it wouldn't be with an ATC. ;)

My fiance loves climbing but sometimes gets a little afraid of heights on very exposed routes. She's doing really good getting over it but sometimes she still freezes up.


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By David Hertel
From Sitka
Nov 12, 2010
Climbing a coulior of steep snow on the First Ascent of: The Ship's Prow, near Skagway, Ak

Mark Nelson wrote:
Dave, it depends on your direction of travel; the reason why you're thinking of a load reduction by redirect is by doing a lowering, whereas an uphaul this friction would then work against you. Maybe the redirect you're thinking is more going from a 3:1, to a 5 or more; in which adding mechanical advantage is different than the redirect.

ok... i get how excess friction hinders your hauling efforts, but now im confused about the whole redirect thing. doesnt adding a mechanical advantage redirect the line? also causing more friction as the rope passes through each added biner?


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By NickinCO
From colorado
Nov 12, 2010
after the hard stuff, into cruiser hands.

David Hertel wrote:
ok... i get how excess friction hinders your hauling efforts, but now im confused about the whole redirect thing. doesnt adding a mechanical advantage redirect the line? also causing more friction as the rope passes through each added biner?


Not sure if I understand your question but a mechanical advantage involves redirecting the line, but a redirect doesn't necessarily have any mechanical advantage. When building a mechanical advantage (3:1, 4:1, 6:1 etc etc) the mechanical advantage outweighs the additional friction put on the rope if using carabiners for the system. The best option is to use pulleys instead of biners if you know you'll be hauling.


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By DannyUncanny
From Vancouver
Nov 13, 2010

I've used the reverso to make a quick 3:1 for pulling my girlfriend over an overhang. I just dropped the slack from the brake strand down with a pulley to clip to her harness.

I can tell you from experience, that hauling your partner up a climb like a sack of potatoes does terrible things to your relationship. A much better approach is to stick to climbs within everyone's ability.


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By Stucker
From Centennial, CO
Nov 14, 2010
Old Greg with his downstairs mix-up.

I hope this is a very short hijack: Besides reading and practicing this stuff on my own or with a patient climbing buddy, how can one learn about these and other rigging principles/techniques etc? Does anyone in Denver get together and practice these things in someone's garage? Or better yet, in a bar? I tried a similar setup to the one in the video in my ex-girlfriends bedroom one time. The lawyers are sorting out the details and I'm not allowed to say anymore... (She was a big girl and I underestimated both the required mechanical advantage and the absorption capacity of the matress.)


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