Elanor 

Excellent route, well protected, thoughtful, pumpy...lots of fun!

The downside? Cleaning the draws on the way down...you'll see....

Led w/2bolts, and it's easier to placer cams on the top 1/2 than to clip the bolts. This would have been a very good route.

Which two?

I believe I used the 2nd & 3rd bolts, but I'd have to look at the route to be sure.

I felt the crux to be about mid way. Good sustained climbing.

Somebody should go over the top on this one. It seems like it would go by somebody stronger than me.

3 stars for the moves, But I have to bomb the bolts where there is clean pro. I hate to start this, but too bad. Should they be chopped?

Questions to consider to answer the above question:

1) Is this a retro-bolt of an previously existing trad route?2) Did you place the bolts?

If the answer to the above questions is 'NO', then of course you should not chop the bolts.

ac

Should this route be chopped? I propose that suggestions like this be made by people who are willing to sign their names as well. There is roughly 1/3 of the climb that is readily protectable with natural gear. The bottom crack, which is probably where Steve D clipped bolts, is mostly blind and/or thin with poor or no placements until after the second crux where the crack system opens up, . Then it's pretty easy up to the last crux where a good crack exists as well. Would it be as popular or as fun without bolts? Anyone interested can check out the crack to the right which gets done very infrequently despite its high quality and good gear. My suggestion to AC--go ahead and climb Eleanor without bolts or without a rope or in flip-flops, but otherwise keep the talk about route-chopping to himself, unless he's willing to identify himself.

Ok, easy, guys. I'm not asking anyone to chop bolts. I was just curious to see what people think about bolts on top of clean pro. Maybe I used the wrong wording. I just don't think a bolt should be next to good clean pro. You can hate me for that if you wish.

Yes, this is a typical example of doublespeak. On the one hand this is only a gym route (and gym routes are changed with regularity) but on the other there is supposed to be a special honor conferred on somebody who poorly bolts a piece of rock after top-roping it. It's ironic that the "right of the first-ascentionist" is the one traditional right proclaimed, even when they really aren't a first-ascentionist at all but only a misguided routesetter.

Thanks for the doublespeak explanation, Steve. Let's see, another and even better example of doublespeak would be Saturnalia. A route which toproped climbing that had previously been led onsight and then poorly retrobolted that climbing. And let's not forget No Lo Contendere, which also poorly bolted rock that had been onsight soloed. What knd of special honor should we confer on you?

Easter has about 25 routes (all bolted).

Elanor could be the odd single route requiring you to carry a rack so you can place 2 cams near the top.

Which means no one would do it , because most folks woudn't bring a rack to Easter Rock - you go there to clip bolts.

This route isn't Rincon or Country Club - I think you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Good route on great stone.

"Thanks for the doublespeak explanation, Steve. Let's see, another and even better example of doublespeak would be Saturnalia. A route which toproped climbing that had previously been led onsight and then poorly retrobolted that climbing. And lets not forget no lo contendere, which also poorly bolted rock that had been onsight soloed. What knd of special honor should we confer on you?"

Interesting...

Anyway, I've climbed this many times as it is a great warm up, and have never thought of it as a trad line. I generally don't clip the last bolt, and therefore, would not place gear in the short crack at the top. It is a sport route and a good one. I have no problem with it as it is.

By the way, there is a crack that goes in the .11+ range (next to Elanor) that was not bolted where gear can be placed. I think that demonstrates a reasonable descretion on the part of those to developed the area.

All of this sounds like nitpicking to me.

Steve Dieckhoff has been a constant voice in the climbing community for at least as long as I have been climbing myself (4 May 1980). In this entire period, he has expressed a constant opinion, and as near as I can tell he has never relented and has never hidden from his opinion. He makes the point that placing a bolt trumps a trad placement, because it becomes a permanent feature of the landscape and asks the question "does placing a bolt confer a special right to permanently alter the landscape?" He comes up with "no" as an answer. There are least a few critical elements that require consideration in this complex and evolving issue. First, if placing a bolt on unrestricted rock is a "right" of the first ascensionists, then restoring the rock must necessarily be an equivalent "right". Second, climbing has always held room for the climber to express their own creativity, and where this creativity does not infringe upon legal restriction it should be given unrestricted expression. Third, what Steve wants, as best as I can determine, is for the first ascesionists to consider well the interests of the climbing community at large and to exercise respect for a limited resource. There are, of course, a lot of things to consider in weighing these concerns, but surely he must be correct in this demand. As far as Elanor is concerned, the climbing community has, in general, voiced little opposition to the bolts and the route can be climbed without clipping them all. It's a fine route with brilliant climbing and Mark saw it best as a fully bolted line. Is there anything here that we cannot live with?

Interesting thoughts, Richard. I'm still a little unclear as to how Saturnalia and No Lo fit in wth Steve's constant and unrelenting position. It seems like his unrelenting position, relents when there's a route he wants to do. But he certainly appears to revel in telling the rest of the climbing community how they should act. Glass houses are still as fragile as ever.

Bob - No argument there. We're all learning, I suppose. In trying to grapple with where S.D. is coming from, it was not hard to see his side of things. I guess, what I'd like to be able to do is to keep this broader view of things in mind all the time, and you're right I have not always done so. I'm also putting away a lot of very inflammatory things attributed to him. But part of my point in trying to balance the many things that come up when we put up new routes is that we all enjoy the "right" to express ourselves, however we choose, so long as we stay within legal limits. There is a kind of anarchy to climbing as you well know, perhaps even more when put up new routes, and I think we need to hold on to that even if we don't staisify Steve or anyone else. But I can live with a little Steve gremlin perched on one shoulder asking whether that permanent bolt is indeed what we want to leave.

After forgetting this site for a pleasantly long time I see that not much has changed..... but I'd like to say that I appreciate Richard Wright's thoughtful comments and open-minded attitude.

If there's anything that gives a moment's pause to impulse-bolting then it's all for the good - because what's the big hurry? I think a good climb is more than just a series of moves and that over-bolting stunts the imagination and makes it all prosaic and pedestrian. I've said time and time again that I'm not opposed to bolts per se and I can give you examples of sport routes that I like but I doubt that would appease those who delight in simple-minded reductionism.

Regarding No Lo Contendre you can read my route description for the history and for Saturnalia I'd remind you that I didn't toprope it before leading it - I did some cleaning on rappel, I pre-placed a couple of RPs with long slings on them, and I worked it out from the bottom up. Then I got approval to place bolts where the RPs were clipped. Find fault with that all you want.

I've been somewhat surprised, over the past years, to hear from so many people who share my feeling that Boulder Canyon has become a disgrace. The good & great routes are diminished by the too-close profusion of pointless, grid-bolted flotsam and jetsam. The sole purpose of too many routes seems to lie in "getting a workout" which, really, is available on any pull-up bar. A frenetically careless attitude leads to avoidable accidents and new climbers learn bad habits and not good ones.

Maybe some day I'll come back here to read all the pithy insights and vapid humor, but for now I have better things to do.

I'm usually in favor of removing bolts if they are placed next to a handcrack, but I don't think this is the case with this route. I've only done this route 3 or 4 times, but is seemed that while there were a few bomber gear placements, others wouldn't be so bomber and the gear would be difficult to place, probably resulting in an "s" rating -- depending on which bolts were left. Sure, Steve D., myself and others would have put this route up differently, but we didn't.

As for Greaser and AC: Why is it when somebody like Steve brings up an issue with a route like this, you guys have to stick your fingers back in his face and give him grief about a different route he put up at a different crag, with permission from the FHRC? It gets us nowhere, but in his defense, Saturnalia is well bolted and a great route (in my opinion). NO LO is a pile. It's not the same line that was soloed. The bolts are in bad spots and it gets one star at best. Steve knows he is not perfect and is open to the idea of having the bolts removed if someone feels so inclined to apply to do so. I wish other first ascentionists felt this way.

Great climb with continuous moves. Save a little something for the finish because the "pump-o-meter" is nearing redline.

There used to be a decent crimp to clip the anchors. However after doing this route yesterday and confirming with my partner it is definitely gone. Now you must clip from the good holds out right, but this makes clipping the left anchor difficult and a stretch if the anchor draws are not already pre-placed. Not that I'm suggesting anything.

@jarthur, I have done this route something like 50 times and have never used the crimp that fell off. There is a decent RH gaston/finger jam on the right that is secure enough to clip the anchor as it currently stands. Moving it is probably not necessary.

Like I said in my previous post, I'm NOT suggesting anything. However, if the anchors are not prehung for those of a lesser ape index than myself (6'2" w/ a +8 ape index), my friends that have not done this route 50 times have had a lot of trouble placing the left most draw from the right hand gaston that you speak of. At least the whip that they have taken is quite enjoyable since it's all air.

Sorry laid it on too thick about the # of ascents. I meant that I have never thought the anchor needed to be moved. BTW I am 5'6". That doesn't mean that I think it shouldn't be moved. The clip is not an essential part of the experience. However, if it was moved right, cleaning the route might be more of an issue?

I agree that hanging the left draw on the anchor is a pain, hence, I hung the right, clipped in, and then pulled up to hang the left. "One for the send, two for safety". Not worth moving the anchors because it would only make cleaning harder.

As for the trouble with clipping both anchors, a leader need only clip the one anyway to lower.

As for all the squawking about chopping bolts just because this one particular climb has some possible placements for pro...I wonder if'n these guys complaining have ever really climbed anywhere in Boulder Canyon before.

This ain't Yosum, fellas...