Andy,
When was the last time you were at the top of Classic/Jackie? There is a bolted chains there. Has been for years now.
Brian

Sorry I didn't get the joke.
I do think it's become a tempest in a teapot.

Eastvillage, thanks for the input and I don't mean any disrespect and this is not directed at you personally but your ideas are the reason why this thread is here. I love the ideas of old school, but hey, my rack is full of cams, I use sticky rubber shoes and a padded harness. You seem to be mistaken about the point of this discussion though, I am speaking of fixed anchors on the top of selected climbs. I'm sure you have used them before at the Gunks, did that diminish your lead experience? I'm guessing that secretly you were glad to have a bomber, straight forward anchor to belay your second.

saw the devil yesterday, he's one hell of a climber- soloed up the corner I sweated up on lead- bastard... I'm gonna do some grid bolting to piss him off (kiddin')

The RMF property only encompasses Ragged Mtn as far as I know, he's "banned" from there- he didn't park at the normal spot on Shelton, that approach brings you through RMF property. He was walking up The Enforcer 5.11R (on top rope, slung to 3" diameter "trees") at Owl's Lair.
Which brings up the origional topic, these small trees are used as anchors and are not going to last much longer. Why the hell don't we have fixed anchors at these crags? It doesen't take a rocket (tree) scientist to see that the vegitation is dwindling from over use. The solution seems to be just ignore it until some non-climbing entity banns all of us from the crag- think Small Cliff.

Jim

Jim,

Technically, you are trespassing by climbing over there. Some non climbing entity already did ban climbing from that east side of Ragged, the New Britain Water Dept. It's been that way for years. Adding bolts will only aggravate the NBWD, and it'll prove people are climbing there, and they'll get chopped by you know who.

If local climbers would stop crowding the same old spots, and spread out a little to the many other secluded traprock crags, our impact wouldn't be so visible. It just happens that everyone gravitates to TR in the same places. Anchor off of gear if you have to, that will save the trees.

Matt

Matt, just to clairify, I have no intenetion of bolting ANY Traprock, the issue is really not that easy. I know there are closed areas, I don't know each one specifically though. It is rediculous that there are climbing areas that we "sneak" into, I can not wrap my mind around the access issues we face here. I will admit my ignorance to the history of the access, I surmise the attempts to secure access have not been revisited for some time. What can the local community do to get secure access? That is the first and foremost hurdle, then a management plan to follow. Sounds like a job for the access fund...
BTW Matt, I know that you know that I know, you know?

JimO

Andy,
When is the last time you have been to the Gunks? Almost all of the raps off trees on at least the popular routes have been replaced with bolts/chains. I can only think of a handful of raps still off trees (e.g. 1st pitch Middle Earth, 1st pitch of Thin Slabs). There is no controversy at the Gunks about putting in bolted rap stations to protect the trees.
Brian

Saving trees is a noble intent and fixed anchors would certainly accomplish that. But don't kid yourself, and let's agree to call a spade a spade - when people say "modern" and complain about having to TR too much, they aren't talking about saving trees - they're talking bolted lines. Sure, if arrangements could be made with land owners and managers - and the bolting were really going to stop with anchors - that would be great. But you'd have to be in serious denial to believe or attempt to sell the idea that's the way it would really unfold once folks broke out the drills.

Ken may well have been a nasty little finger in the dike - but there's also no doubt just what flood he's was attempting to hold back, then or now. A little plain english and honest talk would go a long way towards not reliving that particularly ugly past.

Brian

I live in Albany and climb at the Gunks regularly. There are definitely numerous trees at the top and in the middle that are seeing regular service as anchors / rappels. In some cases, these trees can actually be avoided but parties from out of town don't know how to, so they get used anyway. Off the top of my head (once again at work without the guidebook with my notes) I can think of several popular routes where trees get used heavily.

RMC - Top of P1 (not necessary, but is used as a rap station)

Three Doves/Annie Oh/etc - Top of P1 there are several LARGE pines that get used pretty heavily, granted they're frigging massive trees but they do see LOTS of traffic.

Erect Direction - P1, I'm pretty sure I usually wind up clipping into a tree to belay my partners up.

And there are many many climbs where the top-out anchors are trees. Much like the discussion in CT, the trees at the edge of the cliff are in shallow soil and are undoubtedly strained by our impact. Now, don't take what I'm saying too far. Bolting the tops of ALL the climbs in the gunks would be incredibly expensive, time consuming, and rather silly. Rather, looking more and more at the climbs that are really popular and making sure that people don't have to use trees as anchors on popular routes that see many ascents every weekend. For example, High Exposure is a climb that I think should have bolts at the top of it to limit the impact on the trees. It's a very accessible, heavily trafficked climb which could really benefit from a couple of bolts. In contrast I think putting bolts in at the top the third pitch of Erect Direction (hard 10, not heavily trafficked) is not necessary although I think they could be useful at the top of pitch 1, which is only 5.8 and does see quite a few ascents.

Hahahaha,
Well, conclusion #1 is that most chat room debates remind me of watching a rodent reach ludicrous speed in a hamster wheel. entertaining at first, but in the long run it's just depressing to watch so much energy wasted on nothing.

I honestly cannot believe that this thread has not evolved at all in nearly 6 mos. It's still the old "I'm too trad for bolted anchors" Vs "let's keep and save what we have". There's an ol Cherokee saying that states "we do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from out children. Now I understand that the east coast locust mentality may struggle with such a selfless Ideal, but give it a shot and maybe you all won't get what little you have shut down. Maybe it'll be around for your children. Or just quibble like douchebags. Maybe then you can program a climbing video game so that CT climbing can live on for your children.

jimo, Eldo is calling, Dave's pansy ass is actually getting out this year too.

Andy,
Yes there are still trees being used at the Gunks either because they are the only option or because some climbers don't know where the nearby bolted rap station is. I think we are in agreement on most of this. I just don't get your point. There is no bolting controversy at the Gunks the climbing community is putting up bolted belays/raps to replace the trees in heavy traffic areas and are still going at it. They probably won't get to the more obscure climbs anytime soon if at all. The new Willams guidebook clearly marks all of the new rap stations. So what is your point? Do you want all of the raps/belays bolted immediately? I don't think the Preserve will foot the bill for that. Like I said no one is saying not to bolt the raps at the Gunks so it is really out of context in this thread.
Brian

The Gunks has an awesome mix of bolted anchors and trees to use (for anchors not rapping). There are excellent rap stations all along the wall, all you need to do is remember them and walk a few steps to them. If I were managing that place, I would cut all the webbing off the little mid-wall trees, leave them on only the bigger GT Ledge trees and leave none on the top of the cliff. If you've finished the climb, you can walk to the nearest bolted rap station.
Sure, throw some bolts at the top of the popular 1 pitch lines, you know the ones that people choose to not finish cause the next pitch isn't really worthwhile (V3, Ant's Line, Airy Aira and the like).
I think any trad area with the Gunk's-type traffic could follow that same model in order to preserve the cliff vegetation and the safety of it's visitors. No one wants to see people die because they couldn't do the next pitch.

Andy,
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, or get the last word, but I just don't see a bolting controversy or bolt choppers at the Gunks comparable to CT. I'm still not sure what you want them to do there. Put in more bolts? Create a climbing management plan? My guess is there may be one. If not you many want to get involved with the Gunks Climber's Coalition: http://gunksclimbers.org/index.shtml They work with the Preserve and the Access Fund and they probably have the greatest infulence over what gets bolted and getting funding for it.

Brian