Draw question.

Ok I the first Draws I ever used the biners were facing oppposite dirrections the first few I bought came from the store with the biners facing the opposite dirrection. whenever I bought ones what weren't I flip them but, then someone told me its a No-no.

Whats the truth MP?

That seems to make sense i never really understood why some were flipped and some werent. I dont think it makes a hug difference either way though

that's alot more informative than the "you're gonna die!" from the kid who told me it was bad biz-naz hahah thanks!

you will die.

It's a back clipping issue... There are two ways to back clip: The more well-known (and higher risk) way is to have the rope go through the bottom gate the wrong way. The other (less dangerous) way is to have the top gate facing the direction of the route path (unless perfectly straight up); this increases the chances of the qd self-unclipping. The idea is to have both gates facing away from the climber and the rope clipped so that it 'comes out' of the bottom carabiner and then to the climber.

I'll be flipping Biners tonight...hahah

Aaron Martinuzzi wrote:my understanding is that draws are sold with the gates facing the same way so that the force of a lead fall is transmitted along the spine of biner 1, the dogbone, and then the spine of biner 2 (assuming you've clipped 'correctly'). with carabiners facing in the opposite directions, the force of a fall is distributed over gate-dogbone-spine, which is 'weaker' than spine-dogbone-spine.

This is one of those explanations that sounds plausible, but when you stop and really think it through, it makes no sense whatsoever. Modern carabiners are designed so that when they're loaded in a fall, that load is going to gravitate toward the spine side of the biner; that's why they're asymmetric. This is true whether it's the biner clipped to the bolt or the one clipped to the rope, and it's going to load that way no matter which way the biner is facing. The dogbone is irrelevant since it's centered in the small end of the biner.

I've heard a somewhat more technically convincing rationale for having the biners both face the same way, but I've forgotten what it was. Maybe something to do with avoiding the bolt biner rotating against the bolt and becoming unclipped. Anyway, how they face doesn't really seem that critical to me.

JL

Rather safe than sorry though!

Plus its an excuse to fondle my gear while waiting for this awful weather to leave .

Here's a slightly more opinionated discussion on the topic of back clipping.

I think most people would agree that it's just about reducing risk. Unclipping from rope, gear or hangers during a fall is rare but I've seen several posts from folks here and at rc.com that have seen or had it happen to them.

Hope the weather clears up for you soon!

Thanks Daryl!

Its teasing us man we had a 60 degree weekend a couple of weeks I go ( I went night climbing and it was comfortable!) and now its april first and we got like a foot of snow. I'm going nuts.

Chase Gee wrote:I'll be flipping Biners tonight...hahah

Just be sure you flip them both.

Thread resurrection, I know, but I wanted to revisit this topic - all of my wife's draws are opposing(carabiners facing opposite directions). All of mine are standard(carabiners facing same direction).

I saw this graphic on the metolius website:

Draw

So why do some companies (OP, i think) sell their draws with the carabiners opposing?

Price wrote:Thread resurrection, I know, but I wanted to revisit this topic - all of my wife's draws are opposing(carabiners facing opposite directions). All of mine are standard(carabiners facing same direction). I saw this graphic on the metolius website: So why do some companies (OP, i think) sell their draws with the carabiners opposing?

That picture has nothing to do with the biners being both one direction or not....its just a picture of a backclip. There is nothing inherently unsafe about the biners facing the same direction or not. Its simply (as Daryl stated) a situational thing, i.e. I climb with my biners facing the same direction, but I also carry a couple 'reverse set' draws on my harness so that I can use them if I think it is wise. For e.g., if I am traversing or climbing in a sufficiently diagonal manner then I always like to have the gate facing away from the direction I am falling from. I would say that doing this is pretty anal on my part and it is probably not a big deal either way.

Chase, in short, whoever told you that its a 'no-no' likely does not know what the hell they are talking about. Just don't back clip and you should be just fine no matter what direction your gates are facing.

petzl also has good diagrams of different failure modes with the gates facing varying directions. i will see if i can find them.

i personally like them facing the same way, as i like how they lay on the harness. however some of my dmm mambas are opposing.

at any rate, i am fine as long as they all match and are the same color.

@j - I have been climbing long enough to know what a back clip is, but back clipped or not, shouldn't bolt biner(BB) and rope biner(RB) both face away from the direction of travel. (impossible if biners are opposing)

The likely hood of the BB not rotating down is unlikely, but not unlikely enough to make this a mute point. Whether back clipped or not, the draw could rotate up so that the gate rested on the bolt if the BB is facing the direction of climber travel.

Continue to correct me if I'm wrong.

Price wrote:@j - I have been climbing long enough to know what a back clip is, but back clipped or not, shouldn't bolt biner(BB) and rope biner(RB) both face away from the direction of travel. (impossible if biners are opposing) The likely hood of the BB not rotating down is unlikely, but not unlikely enough to make this a mute point. Whether back clipped or not, the draw could rotate up so that the gate rested on the bolt if the BB is facing the direction of climber travel. Continue to correct me if I'm wrong.

Sorry Price, I didn't mean to imply you don't know what a back clip is. I guess I'm not exactly sure what you are getting at, but perhaps you are taking about this kind of (BB) rotation issue:

mountainproject.com/images/…

or the bottom bolt and draw in this picture

mountainproject.com/images/…

I actually bent the crap out of a hanger because of this kind of problem. I now always clip the (BB) into the hanger in the opposite direction than that shown in the above pictures to avoid that situation. This is why I always carry a couple of draws where the biners are set up in both directions. That way, I can clip the (BB) in the direction I want AND have the gate facing away from the direction that I will be falling from. Does that make sense? Was this the issue you were trying to address?

Price wrote:@j - I have been climbing long enough to know what a back clip is, but back clipped or not, shouldn't bolt biner(BB) and rope biner(RB) both face away from the direction of travel. (impossible if biners are opposing)

No, usually you just want the bolt end biner facing away from the bolt and the rope end facing away from the direction of travel. I just have all of mine facing the same way, and if I think I want them opposed, i just rotate the bolt end biner so that they are now opposed

I too like mine facing the same way. If you take the picture posted by Price and disregard the rope-end biner, take a look at the bolt-end one. I don't like how it's resting right in the nose or how how the biner rotates down in the event of a fall that it *potentially* could get snagged on the bolt and open and unclip. (see the link Daryl posted). I like the gates to be away from the bolt and the rope, just my preference, *looks* safer to me.

@J and Red -

This is turning into an interesting (and probably way too complicated) discussion. But I'm sitting here listening to a software demo, so no biggie.

You seem to be saying the opposite thing. If you look at the pictures that J posted, the BB is facing away from the bolt - through the hanger.

whoa - this is entirely too much thought put into sport climbing. I need a nap.

rope biner should face away from direction of travel...every thing else is style.

Price wrote:@J and Red - This is turning into an interesting (and probably way too complicated) discussion. But I'm sitting here listening to a software demo, so no biggie. You seem to be saying the opposite thing. If you look at the pictures that J posted, the BB is facing away from the bolt - through the hanger.

I think we are saying the same thing. We both prefer Diagram 12. Both orientations on the hanger have inherent risks, but interaction with the bolt is more likely IMO than full rotation to the top of the hanger resulting in unclipping. The rope unclipping from the biner is way more likely in any case though so that should be the top priority, face that biner away from the direction of travel, and clip the draw to the hanger that orientates the rope end biner in that fashion. Then decide if you think the bolt end biner may have issues with the hanger or its bolt, if so, flip the biner upside down so the hanger can't open it.