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By Muff
Dec 15, 2010
.

I seriously doubt a bolt will ever be added to DC and if it were added it would most likely be removed. With that said people need to realize that climbing is different than it was back in the old days. Climbers now are unaware of what 5.7 trad means and think that they are more than capable even if they can lead harder on sport or in the gym.

So if we wish to see less injuries/fatalities it is our duties as educated climbers to teach those who are coming into the sport. What I have read in this discussion has saddened me as some of the people I have looked up to in the climbing community have made some pretty caustic and disregarding remarks as to the severity of this issue. Please take a more reasonable and mature understanding of this issue.

As Woody said, we need to educate climbers. Some other posters in this thread have taken a rather childish stance by making callous remarks at those who have died on this route. I agree climbing is dangerous but it shouldn't be something that we scoff at when others have made mistakes.


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By Alex Whitman
Dec 15, 2010
Luxury Liner, Indian Creek

Adam Kimmerly wrote:
Just like the previous ones placed here?


Exactly, those bolts, or at least the holes, will be there forever. They never should have been there in the first place and now this rock is scarred.


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 15, 2010
El Chorro

Muff wrote:
I seriously doubt a bolt will ever be added to DC and if it were added it would most likely be removed. With that said people need to realize that climbing is different than it was back in the old days. Climbers now are unaware of what 5.7 trad means and think that they are more than capable even if they can lead harder on sport or in the gym. So if we wish to see less injuries/fatalities it is our duties as educated climbers to teach those who are coming into the sport. What I have read in this discussion has saddened me as some of the people I have looked up to in the climbing community have made some pretty caustic and disregarding remarks as to the severity of this issue. Please take a more reasonable and mature understanding of this issue. As Woody said, we need to educate climbers. Some other posters in this thread have taken a rather childish stance by making callous remarks at those who have died on this route. I agree climbing is dangerous but it shouldn't be something that we scoff at when others have made mistakes.


I understand what you're saying and probably should have toned down my first response. Apologies.

But I don't think that the problem lies with the more experienced climbers failing to educate others. I owe a lot to climbing, and whenever I get the chance to teach others about climbing, I do so. In fact I try it quite often. I think there are a lot of experienced climbers out there that do the same.

The problem is that people think that they can learn how to climb by reading books, asking questions on the internet, and climbing in the gym. Many times I've seen people going about things improperly or getting on a route that I know is going to be over their head. When ever I say something I seem to get the cold shoulder. Many people seem to be afraid to share the experience with me, or anyone, for fear of feeling like a gumby. I find that more and more people want to try and get through the learning curve on their own, in the comfort of their own home, and then go out and join the climbing community once they feel like they are a "climber." This is not how it works.

Climbing is a life long process. You have to get out of your comfort zone. Climb with more experienced partners. Ask questions. Call yourself a beginner. CLIMB OUTSIDE! Be passionate, and BE HUMBLE! Eventually, you will progress into a safe and smart climber who doesn't deck on well protected climbs.

Of course I'll always try and educate people. I also think that sometimes it is better to just tell people the way it is:

"That's not a good reason to rock climb."
"It sounds like you'd have more fun if you just stayed at the gym."
"You don't have the skill set to be here and if you keep it up you are going to get hurt or dead."

There is nothing wrong with telling someone the truth. Hopefully they believe you and seek knowledge. If not then hopefully they will quit climbing or stay inside.

And Don't call me an elitist or a snob. I know where I belong. I'm never doing the Bacar-Yerrian and probably wouldn't think of getting on many of the old school routes in J-Tree either. I know that I don't have the mental capacity at this time to climb routes like that. Do I wish there were more bolts on those climbs? NO! Do I dream about becoming strong enough to do the climbs the way they are? Sometimes. Mostly though, I have respect for this pursuit and when I want to do something, I do it properly.

There are just too many people out there that don't get it...and it's ruining climbing. When I get the chance to tell those people how it is... I do so.


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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Dec 15, 2010

Leave them bolts alone! I clip em every time I run a free solo lap on the DC.


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By Bryan G
From San Jose
Dec 15, 2010
Puffy jackets and Happy Boulders

Choss Chasin' wrote:
You choppers are doing just as much damage to the rock as the guy putting in bolts.


Chopping a bolt does not alter or damage the rock, it's just the removal of hardware that was installed in the rock. The unaesthetic hole that remains afterward was drilled by the bolter, not the chopper. Retrobolters and defenders of retrobolters can try to spin it any way they want, but just because someone can't magically make the rock new again after chopping a bolt, doesn't change the fact that it was the bolter who did the damage.


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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Dec 15, 2010
Bocan

Bryan Gohn wrote:
Chopping a bolt does not alter or damage the rock, it's just the removal of hardware that was installed in the rock. The unaesthetic hole that remains afterward was drilled by the bolter, not the chopper. Retrobolters and defenders of retrobolters can try to spin it any way they want, but just because someone can't magically make the rock new again after chopping a bolt, doesn't change the fact that it was the bolter who did the damage.


Semantics dude...semantics.

And that statment isn't totally true. You can chop a bolt and destroy the rock, see the Ken Nicols bolt removal kit. Quite often folks are doing more damage and not everyone is taking the time to repair it perfectly.

You can add or remove a bolt equally as destructive.


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By Muff
Dec 15, 2010
.

Ryan, I think you have a very good mindset in regards to this situation.

I don't want this to be lengthy but here's how I view the history of climbing and modern day climbers in a nutshell:

The original climbers were nothing short of fearless men and women who had the mental and physical strength of superhumans. These individuals were well aware of the dangers of climbing and in a lot of cases made their own climbing gear. They knew damn well what 5.7 trad felt like and if you have ever climbed places like Tahquitz you know that the open book is the stoutest 5.9 on the planet making some 5.10s and 5.11s look like child's play.

Ok there's the past. Here is the present.

Today we have a large community of climbers both seasoned and new to the game. These climbers are typically climbing hard sport as they were trained in the gym and have now made an awkward transition into climbing. They are like growing puppies or adolescent children who are not fully aware of their bodies. They have the power of a v10 boulderer or a 5.12 sport climber but do not have the mental game to keep it together above sketchy gear. I am a culprit of this as I am very early in my career but was fortunate enough to survive my early trad climbing days when I got myself in over my head. Its hard for new climbers to enter the arena and see people free solo something that is hard for them. When the media portrays ultra strong climbers who make it look easy, these new climbers want a piece of that pie.

So to make it simple. Newer climbers (myself included) are not humble and are not super sensible of the dangers of climbing. Try to put yourself in their shoes.

The right decision in my mind is NOT TO BOLT Double Cross and to be honest there really isn't any solution to this issue unless we change the fundamentals of climbing and our approach to it.

INSTILL FEAR MY FRIENDs! It's the only way to get people to slow down and maybe consider learning things on a slower curve.


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By Tavis Ricksecker
From Bishop, ca
Dec 15, 2010
Church of the Lost and Found, Left. Summer 2013

Holy shit, please someone tell me that this whole thread is an elaborate joke. It's like a bad dream...


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Dec 15, 2010
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

Zeke wrote:
Horse to water...

Sorry I can't lead you man-- If you can't understand why context is important, find a different cowboy's leg to hump.

Zeke wrote:
Rating other users' contributions will probably just lead to a drama queen shit storm.

Yep, among other things.

So you've commented a few times on the thread. Do you have an opinion or do you just quip little sentence fragments at people to be dramatic?


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 15, 2010
Colonel Mustard

Tony B wrote:
Sorry I can't lead you man-- If you can't understand my context find a different cowboy's leg to hump.


Alright, Brokeback, I can see I done upset yah. I reckon you should keep on postering up to this vewy serious thread.


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 15, 2010
Colonel Mustard

Tony B wrote:
Sorry I can't lead you man-- If you can't understand why context is important, find a different cowboy's leg to hump. Yep.


Whoa! Stop the editing! Separate posts, please. More pc++ that way.


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By Murf
Dec 15, 2010

Muff wrote:
I don't want this to be lengthy


Too late.

Muff wrote:
The original climbers were nothing short of fearless men and women who had the mental and physical strength of superhumans. These individuals were well aware of the dangers of climbing and in a lot of cases made their own climbing gear.



In a lot of cases they were stoned teenagers, who like most teenagers were clueless.

Muff wrote:
They knew damn well what 5.7 trad felt like


Yes it was called "F7", see this climb Pinched Rib.


Muff wrote:
and if you have ever climbed places like Tahquitz you know that the open book is the stoutest 5.9 on the planet making some 5.10s and 5.11s look like child's play.


Open Book isn't a stout 5.9


Muff wrote:
Ok there's the past. Here is the present.......


I didn't read any of that but I'm pretty sure whatever you said is wrong.

Muff wrote:
INSTILL FEAR MY FRIENDs!



There's an RED alert right now on DC, the bolts are going to be gone this Saturday. Be VERY AFRAID!


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 15, 2010
Colonel Mustard

Tony B wrote:
Sorry I can't lead you man-- If you can't understand why context is important, find a different cowboy's leg to hump. Yep, among other things. So you've commented a few times on the thread. Do you have an opinion or do you just quip little sentence fragments at people to be dramatic?


Wow. So many edits.

My opinion is there is not going to be any re- or retro-bolting of DC anytime soon and that this is a troll thread, something you'd figure out if you looked at the players and what they're saying.


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By Murf
Dec 15, 2010

Zeke wrote:
Wow. So many edits. My opinion is there is not going to be any re- or retro-bolting of DC anytime soon and that this is a troll thread, something you'd figure out if you looked at the players and what they're saying.


#7


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By Murf
Dec 15, 2010

Bob Packwood wrote:
Murf and Muff can you please change your names to be dissimilar so that I can more effectively waste time on this thread?

I think it would be most effective if you just delete your account.


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 15, 2010
Colonel Mustard

Murf wrote:
#7


Ah, man, I don't remember the old man's numerals. Is that they I'm too high one? IT's my story?

Crazy this one still works after so many iterations.


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By Murf
Dec 15, 2010

Zeke wrote:
Ah, man, I don't remember the old man's numerals. Is that they I'm too high one? IT's my story? Crazy this one still works after so many iterations.


Yes you are wrong.


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By berl
From Oregon
Dec 15, 2010

Tavis Ricksecker wrote:
Holy shit, please someone tell me that this whole thread is an elaborate joke. It's like a bad dream...



yes, it is an elaborate joke, mostly in an effort to hit 6 pages.


I'm totally uninvolved with this whole business, since I've never been to J-tree, but I'm curious about one piece of information:

exactly how far is it, really, to the first good gear on this thing?

as far as the grand discussion of gyms, sportos, bolts, blahblah: there are lots of sport climbs, bolted climbs, partially bolted climbs, etc that have high first bolts over relatively easy terrain. This height, the landing and terrain in between (all of which you can almost always see with your eyeballs), combined with the overall rating of the climb provide more than enough information for you to decide whether or not to give it a shot. Every leader should be able to make this is assessment for ANY climb: gear, bolts, whatever.


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 15, 2010
Colonel Mustard

Murf wrote:
Yes you are wrong.


Sounds great. Keep up the subpar trolling, buddy!

TB style edit: PTFTW!!!


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By Murf
Dec 15, 2010

berl wrote:
I'm totally uninvolved with this whole business, since I've never been to J-tree


Then what are you doing in this forum?

berl wrote:
but I'm curious about one piece of information: exactly how far is it, really, to the first good gear on this thing?


With the bolt about 10', without it about the same.

berl wrote:
as far as the grand discussion of gyms, sportos, bolts, blahblah: there are lots of sport climbs, bolted climbs, partially bolted climbs, etc that have high first bolts over relatively easy terrain. This height, the landing and terrain in between (all of which you can almost always see with your eyeballs), combined with the overall rating of the climb provide more than enough information for you to decide whether or not to give it a shot. Every leader should be able to make this is assessment for ANY climb: gear, bolts, whatever.


Do you have a mental calculation or something you use for this?


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Dec 15, 2010
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

Zeke wrote:
My opinion is there is not going to be any re- or retro-bolting of DC anytime soon and that this is a troll thread, something you'd figure out if you looked at the players and what they're saying.


Perhaps that is the important thing about context. You see, the context you deleted said:

Tony B wrote:
Hi Kevin, I'm not a local and not taking a position on Double cross at this time.

and
Tony B wrote:
And nobody notices the irony in the jargin here?


I think maybe all your posts are a little ironic too. Has it occurred to you that there is some irony of you continuing to tell me what this thread is or isn't?


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By Murf
Dec 15, 2010

Zeke wrote:
Sounds great. Keep up the subpar trolling, buddy! TB style edit: PTFTW!!!

That's not how you spell sub-par; hint, there's a 'Z' in it.


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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Dec 15, 2010
My kinda simian

berl wrote:
exactly how far is it, really, to the first good gear on this thing?


Measured from the gear to the ground, or from the gear to the top of the pile of dead bodies?


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 15, 2010
Colonel Mustard

Murf wrote:
That's not how you spell sub-par; hint, there's a 'Z' in it.

Good one, zMurf.


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By Murf
Dec 15, 2010

Zeke wrote:
Good one, zMurf.

Another hint, the 'Z' is capitalized.


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