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By Mike Schen
From Phoenix, AZ
Dec 15, 2010

This is insane. When I first did this, it was the hardest trad climb for me, at that point. I walked up the easy ramp. I placed two bomber nuts at the start of the crack, because I didn't own a lot of cams. I promptly fell. My first nut held. It didn't matter, because my second nut was bomber too. Are we going to add a bolt 2 feet off the deck of SW Corner now?


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By Dave Swink
From Boulder, Co
Dec 15, 2010

Ryan Williams wrote:
Anyone who decks on that route deserves what they get.


Are you just trying to make an exaggerated point, or would you really say that to the family of someone hurt on the route?


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By Dave Swink
From Boulder, Co
Dec 15, 2010

Ryan Williams wrote:
OK after looking at the picture I just had to say one more thing: Anyone who put bolts on something like that would get an ass whoopin' where I'm from. Really. OK, one more thing... Anyone who decks on that route deserves what they get.


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By cjdrover
From Somerville, MA
Dec 15, 2010
Taken at MWV Icefest 2014.

Adam Kimmerly wrote:
Thank you for taking a stand against the snobbish elitism that has kept this thing a dangerous route for so long. Now the rest of the climbing community can safely enjoy taking the sharp end on this one.

I have to believe this is a joke.

The argument that people getting hurt on a climb means the climb in unsafe is bullshit. It means the climbers are unsafe. Don't change the climb... change the climber.


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Dec 15, 2010
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

Kevin Craig wrote:
OK, so I'm confused. Everyone jumps up and down and screams and yells about how the FA has the right, until the end of time, to determine the style of the route and how many, if any, bolts are used. Until... a member of the FA party comes on here an supports adding a bolt or two. THEN...WELL, it's community standards that are important, or "climbing is dangerous", or (my personal favorite) the FA wasn't the ***REAL*** FA (who conveniently will never be known), or some other BS. I honestly don't give a flying flip whether the start is bolted or not, but how about a little consistency? Can you guys really not feel good about yourselves if people don't keep getting injured or killed on some 100 foot route that you once led? (and yes, I'm from Colorado >;^D)

Hi Kevin,
I'm not a local and not taking a position on Double cross at this time, but I will inject a point here. Retrobolters often 'excuse' the presence of a retrobolt saying that once it's been in place for a great amount of time, that it has become part of the climb... and that it should remain because it is expected, or has become a part of the climb as people know it. It's an interesting argument, I suppose.

Now here we have the question of a route FA'd 30+ years ago with no bolt and the FA party OK's or adds a bolt. At what point did the route get FA'd? Does the route have a bolt from the FA? At what point does it belong to the community as it is? Is the patent right to the climb inexhaustible?

Those are questions not answers.
Here are more from me are:
"How high up are the 'proposed' bolts?"
"If DC is hurting people, will a bolt 8' off the ground stop that?"
"Are they falling 14 feet up it?"

I doubt it. Maybe I'm missing something. I've done DC twice, years ago, but I can't recall any runout except at the bottom 10 feet.
If someone wanted (even the FA party) to bolt the Bastille crack, they could point to injuries and deaths on it, but it won't happen.

Adam Kimmerly wrote:
Now the rest of the climbing community can safely enjoy taking the sharp end on this one.

And nobody notices the irony in the jargin here?


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By J.J
Dec 15, 2010

We should just remove the Law of Gravity from Double Cross and everyone would be happy!


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By JSH
Administrator
Dec 15, 2010
JSH @ home <br /> <br />photo courtesy of Gabe Ostriker

Batten is dead, long live Batten.

Is this the oldest climbing-related troll?

Nice to see it resurrected.


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Dec 15, 2010
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

caughtinside wrote:
You should see the mess he left behind when he destroyed the Big Moe toprope anchor a couple weeks ago. Socal's own Ken Nichols!!


Godwin's Law states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

Bubb's Corollary is that "As an online discussion on bolting grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Ken Nichols approaches 1."


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By Tim McCabe
Dec 15, 2010

Today's Wisdom from the home page:

'The greatest virtue that man learns from mountains is that he has not gone to the mountains to conquer them; rather, he has gone to the mountains to conquer himself.'

- Eric Trinka

What is Rock Climbing

A. A mental and physical challenge, mind and body working together to overcome a series obstacles.

B. A form of physical exercise practiced on rock.

C. Both

To those who would bolt the world and remove any sense of danger from the activity of Rock Climbing. Do yourself a favor and stay in the gym.

To those who will chop said bolts, do a good job of it.


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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 15, 2010
El Chorro

JJ Brunner wrote:
I'm all for not bolting but cmon. So you're saying when I started to lead, because I had very limited experience and thought I placed adequate pro, that if I was wrong because of inexperience that I deserved to die?


I worded that a little strongly. No one DESERVES to DIE. BUT, if you "think" you are placing "adequate pro" then you shouldn't be climbing. You should KNOW that you are placing BOMBER pro. It's not rocket science. The gear is either good or it isn't. You place it, evaluate it, and make a risk based decision. This is the problem with climbing today. People thing that it's OK to be inexperienced. It's NOT. Get experienced. Dedicate yourself to climbing, or don't do it.

Dave Swink wrote:
Are you just trying to make an exaggerated point, or would you really say that to the family of someone hurt on the route?


In this particular case it sounds like you'd either have to rip two pieces or fall on easy 5th to deck. I'm sure I'd word it differently, but if the family or climber or anyone else wanted my opinion, I'd tell them. There's no reason to be nice to anyone about it. If you fall off a 5.7 and rip two pieces, you're probably going to get messed up weather you hit the ground or not. If you can't see that before you get on the climb, you shouldn't be climbing. If you do see that and choose to climb anyways, then yea, you deserve what you get because you are ignoring the seriousness of what we do and disrespecting the time and dedication it takes to be a safe climber.

When someone dies things change. You can't teach a dead person any lessons and it certainly doesn't help their family to speak about them in a negative way. I don't want to seem insensitive or offensive to anyone who has suffered that kind of loss so if I did I'm terribly sorry. I just hope that we can all learn from their misfortune.


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By Adam Kimmerly
Dec 15, 2010

Alex Whitman wrote:
... stay the fuck away from climbs that have been established bolt free.
If I'm not mistaken, the route was established as an aid climb. Perhaps we should all get our hammers out and climb in the original style?

Alex Whitman wrote:
Remember bolts are forever.

Just like the previous ones placed here?


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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Dec 15, 2010
My kinda simian

Murf wrote:
Me n' my sub Ryan Kelly will be pulling any bolts on DC this weekend. If you got a problem with this, meet me Saturday morning early, before the queue forms. Also, my pin rack is a little bare after my Zodiac solo, and the LA's on Sexy Grammma are clean. Consider yourself warned! No more pussification of climbing!!


I told you Murf, I'm not your sub anymore! I helped out when you wanted to remove the rap from Papa Woosley, I looked the other way when you chopped the convenience anchors on Colorado Crack, but I put my foot down when you decided to remove the anchors on Big Moe. That was a classic TR that was quick to do when in Echo. Now it's all but worthless. I hope you're proud of yourself.


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By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Dec 15, 2010
Russ

To add: Don't get me wrong, I think it is tragic what happens to families because of this climb, but.... could the bereaved maybe think about less fucking memorials at the base? Between the plastic flowers, rock circles, and wooden crosses the base of the route is starting to look like a Tijuanna land fill. Rein in your grief people and quit littering the Park with your monuments to the fallen.


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 15, 2010
Colonel Mustard

Tony B wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something.


A sarcasm/troll detector is my guess.


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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Dec 15, 2010
My kinda simian

Tony brings up a good point, Bastille Crack could use a bolt too.


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By csproul
From Rancho Cordova, CA
Dec 15, 2010
Summit of Wolf's Head with Pingora in the background

I wonder how many of the people commenting on this route have actually climbed it? If you haven't been on it...I'm not sure I really care about your opinion.


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Dec 15, 2010
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

Zeke wrote:
A sarcasm/troll detector is my guess.

Hmmm. That's so far out of context that I couldn't even figure out where you pulled my quote from.
I didn't think the OP was sarcastic or trolling when he suggested putting in bolts. Maybe he was... but there are certainly people who are not.

csproul wrote:
I wonder how many of the people commenting on this route have actually climbed it? If you haven't been on it...I'm not sure I really care about your opinion.

Well, I mostly agree with that... but we have 2 debates here- one about DC, and a more abstract one one about retrobolting. I agree that people who haven't climbed it are on thin ice in the former. I was trying to engage the latter...


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By Jesse Davidson
From san diego, ca
Dec 15, 2010
n cascades <br />

Can we at least agree that any bolts added on DC in the future be added in such a way that they can be easily removed? Only stainless power bolts, or triplex, no wedges! And when you chop, please do not fill the hole, so that someone doesn't have to drill a new one? Re-drilling is so inconvenient! Also, while you are bolting, can we please have a good rap station off of the top of every popular formation in Josh? I'm tired of using up half of my climbing hours trying to get off of those piles!


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 15, 2010
Colonel Mustard

Tony B wrote:
Hmmm. That's so far out of context that I couldn't even figure out where you pulled my quote from.


Horse to water...


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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Dec 15, 2010
My kinda simian

Bob Packwood wrote:
Can someone please slap down those last Kimmerly comments, so I don't have to?



Can't man up and dish it out yourself? That's like the online analogy of not having the gonads to pull the moves and clipping the bolt instead.


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By Tim McCabe
Dec 15, 2010

Jesse Davidson wrote:
Also, while you are bolting, can we please have a good rap station off of the top of every popular formation in Josh? I'm tired of using up half of my climbing hours trying to get off of those piles!


Spoken like a true plastic puller figuring out the descent is half the adventure of J-Tree.

Oh and I have climbed this route so I do get to comment.

To be honest I haven't been there in years and as someone said earlier I don't care what happens on this particular route.

But I must admit it saddens me to see where climbing is going these days. It's not a gym people it the great outdoors every situation is different learn how to deal with it. Rise to the level of the climb don't bring the climb down to your level.

On second thought it would be great to add holds to any climb over 5.10. I was always good at run outs but never did get strong enough for 5.11. Always did want to climb the Left Ski Track maybe someone could add some plastic holds and bring it down to about 10a then I could lead it.


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By Murf
Dec 15, 2010

Tim McCabe wrote:
Spoken like a true plastic puller figuring out the descent is half the adventure of J-Tree. Oh and I have climbed this route so I do get to comment. To be honest I haven't been there in years and as someone said earlier I don't care what happens on this particular route. But I must admit it saddens me to see where climbing is going these days. It's not a gym people it the great outdoors every situation is different learn how to deal with it. Rise to the level of the climb don't bring the climb down to your level. On second thought it would be great to add holds to any climb over 5.10. I was always good at run outs but never did get strong enough for 5.11. Always did want to climb the Left Ski Track maybe someone could add some plastic holds and bring it down to about 10a then I could lead it.


Right On Brother McCabe!! Keep the pussification in the gyms.

DC will be cleanup up no matter what coloradiegoians say.

Consider it and SG on the "clean up" list, anchors and all!


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By Murf
Dec 15, 2010

Bob Packwood wrote:
I've got "being the obligatory prick on mp forums" fatigue...But I'll try: That is not a good comparison. Learn some history. Of course many climbs were established as aid climbs, but then the rise of free climbing meant those same climbs were established as free climbs. This transition from aid to free is established and accepted, unlike retrobolting, which so clearly ruins forever the character of routes. If you were to aid this route, hammerless of course, it would still be the same for all of us afterwards. That is a critical distinction that I hope you will take to heart.


This Kimerly dude is what's wrong with climbing.


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By Alex Whitman
Dec 15, 2010
Luxury Liner, Indian Creek

Chris Drover wrote:
The argument that people getting hurt on a climb means the climb in unsafe is bullshit. It means the climbers are unsafe. Don't change the climb... change the climber.


Amen, enough said.


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By Muff
Dec 15, 2010
.

I seriously doubt a bolt will ever be added to DC and if it were added it would most likely be removed. With that said people need to realize that climbing is different than it was back in the old days. Climbers now are unaware of what 5.7 trad means and think that they are more than capable even if they can lead harder on sport or in the gym.

So if we wish to see less injuries/fatalities it is our duties as educated climbers to teach those who are coming into the sport. What I have read in this discussion has saddened me as some of the people I have looked up to in the climbing community have made some pretty caustic and disregarding remarks as to the severity of this issue. Please take a more reasonable and mature understanding of this issue.

As Woody said, we need to educate climbers. Some other posters in this thread have taken a rather childish stance by making callous remarks at those who have died on this route. I agree climbing is dangerous but it shouldn't be something that we scoff at when others have made mistakes.


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