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By Phil Lauffen
From The Bubble
Dec 14, 2010
RMNP skiing. Photo by Nodin de Saillan
caughtinside wrote:
The rock doesn't care if it has bolts or not you dirty idiot hippy!


True. But with the flatirons and eldo in your backyard you should realize that bolts can have impact on access.

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By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Dec 14, 2010
You stay away from mah pig!
Phil Lauffen wrote:
True. But with the flatirons and eldo in your backyard you should realize that bolts can have impact on access.


caughtinside never climbs outside the gym. He works too much.

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By Kevin Craig
Dec 14, 2010
KC on Fields (medium).  Photo (c) Doug Shepherd
OK, so I'm confused. Everyone jumps up and down and screams and yells about how the FA has the right, until the end of time, to determine the style of the route and how many, if any, bolts are used. Until... a member of the FA party comes on here an supports adding a bolt or two. THEN...WELL, it's community standards that are important, or "climbing is dangerous", or (my personal favorite) the FA wasn't the ***REAL*** FA (who conveniently will never be known), or some other BS.

I honestly don't give a flying flip whether the start is bolted or not, but how about a little consistency?

Can you guys really not feel good about yourselves if people don't keep getting injured or killed on some 100 foot route that you once led? (and yes, I'm from Colorado >;^D)

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By Tim McCabe
Dec 14, 2010
What is rock climbing.

A. A dangerous activity in which participants mitigate said dangers by use of safety gear and experience with said gear.

B. A gymnastic sport where all danger has been removed by the placement of permanent protection ie bolts.

C. All of the above.

Obviously in 1967 the answer was A. today it is most likely C. it shouldn't have to be only B. Though I am sure there are many who would like it to only be A. or only B.

I have lead DC twice but I was already a fairly experienced climber before I got there. As I recall the jams were pretty easy, and I was not a very good crack climber that first time. I also remember that the crack had a lip that made jamming easier but placing pro harder.

It seems to me that placing bolts at the bottom of this climb will only lead to more problems by attracting climbers with even less experience.

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By J.J
Dec 14, 2010
Choss Chasin' wrote:
I don't care either way about double cross re-bolting I haven't led it yet and probably won't for a while cause it is always gangbanged. However what really pisses me off are these bolt chopping wars. I totally agree that when natural protection is available bolts should not be placed. What I despise seeing atop and on climbs are the remnants of these bolt wars. Choppers get all pissed that some one put a bolt somewhere and they go out and remove said bolt. Next week it gets re-bolted. Week after chopped again. Now I have to look at your ugly ass ethics debate etched forever into what was once a beautiful piece of rock. You choppers are doing just as much damage to the rock as the guy putting in bolts. Unless your painstakingly gluing over and covering the old bolt with perfectly matching rock dust think REAL HARD before you chop something. Having ethics is nice but thinking that your removing an eyesore by creating another is downright foolish.

Well said! I'd clip the bolt if it were there, but I'd prefer it not be. If you're that opposed to the bolt then don't clip it and express your thoughts that future routes shouldn't be bolted the same way. Chopping is not the answer, at least on this popular route. That being said, I can't wait to lead Double Cross! I followed DC and Dog Leg last time I was there and can't wait to lead them! Double Cross won't be a problem, Dog Leg will be tough!

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By Brian in SLC
Dec 14, 2010
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
Locker wrote:
the two bolts at the start of "Double Cross" have again been replaced!!!... PLEASE don't CHOP them!!!...


Long live Jeff Batten!

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By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Dec 14, 2010
Russ
Even if you use a bouldering pad or two at the base, there is still big injury potential. This is not a climb for plastic pullers.

I think there was a carryout/rescue on Double Cross again today! Somebody, please stop the madness!

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By Murf
Dec 14, 2010
Me n' my sub Ryan Kelly will be pulling any bolts on DC this weekend. If you got a problem with this, meet me Saturday morning early, before the queue forms. Also, my pin rack is a little bare after my Zodiac solo, and the LA's on Sexy Grammma are clean. Consider yourself warned!

No more pussification of climbing!!

FLAG
 
By Shawn Mitchell
From Broomfield
Dec 15, 2010
Splitter Jams on the Israel/Palestine Security Wall.
Russ Walling wrote:
I think there was a carryout/rescue on Double Cross again today! Somebody, please stop the madness!

That strikes me as a a simple but important argument. I'm not sure how I feel about the whole debate. Hell, I led it on nuts and hexes when I was 16 and had been climbing a year and a half. But maybe we shouldn't be posturing over symbolism or treating Double Cross as a metaphor for the future of all of climbing. Maybe we should recognize it's a uniquely aesthetic, accessible, popular climb that keeps claiming bones and blood. Maybe we can stand down from raging if someone acts to make it safer. The debate can simmer about the rest of the rockscape, but tombstones don't need to pile up for a trade testpiece one minute from a Southern California parking lot.

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By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Dec 15, 2010
Russ
Between the bolt wars on Double Cross and the possible chopping of Figures on a Landscape last week, I'm at a loss. Do we make them all safe? Chop them all? Let the dust settle?

Shawn, I'm sorry to hear that it took you a year and a half of trying to lead Double Cross. It is easier now with the bolts. Maybe try it again?

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By caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Dec 15, 2010
Murf wrote:
Me n' my sub Ryan Kelly will be pulling any bolts on DC this weekend. If you got a problem with this, meet me Saturday morning early, before the queue forms. Also, my pin rack is a little bare after my Zodiac solo, and the LA's on Sexy Grammma are clean. Consider yourself warned! No more pussification of climbing!!


The hardware on the Sexy Grandma was put in by the FA, after the FA, so that all might enjoy a safer alternative to Double Cross, which was boltless (and racking up scores of broken legs!) at the time. Do not chop!

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By Murf
Dec 15, 2010
Figures was due for the chop. A bold onsite lead by Matt Cox wayyy before those other posers even saw it. The biggest snake job ever performed in JT.

Just bcause you need those bolts Mr. "Fish" doesn't mean we need to pussify climbing.

Bolt Free America!!!

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By Murf
Dec 15, 2010
caughtinside wrote:
The hardware on the Sexy Grandma was put in by the FA, after the FA, so that all might enjoy a safer alternative to Double Cross, which was boltless (and racking up scores of broken legs!) at the time. Do not chop!


The FA only gets to decide on hardware on the FA! This is well known cottonswap. You can't change your mind after you get old and scared. Sexy Grandma should be restored to its original state. Bring a #3 Camelot and a blue "Wild Bliss".

No pussification of climbing!

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By caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Dec 15, 2010
Not everyone can afford a rack Murf! How many threads have you seen with people asking about the best beginner sport routes in Josh? Leave the Sexy Grandma alone!

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By Brian in SLC
Dec 15, 2010
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
Murf wrote:
Just bcause you need those bolts Mr. "Fish" doesn't mean we need to pussify climbing.


I'm confused...

The P girl forgets to clip the bolts on Double Cross
The P girl forgets to clip the bolts on Double Cross


If you lead it, sans bolts, and, you don't have a sack...and we don't need to pussify climbing...

Oh, my head's spinning...

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By Murf
Dec 15, 2010
Brian in SLC wrote:
I'm confused... If you lead it, sans bolts, and, you don't have a sack...and we don't need to pussify climbing... Oh, my head's spinning...


Brian I'm a gentleman, I mean no disrespect for the hardcore "ladies" who have a full rack, (unlike cottonswab). But still, say no to pussification!

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By Murf
Dec 15, 2010
caughtinside wrote:
Not everyone can afford a rack Murf! How many threads have you seen with people asking about the best beginner sport routes in Josh? Leave the Sexy Grandma alone!


Sports climbing starts at the "one two" cottonspit.

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By Monty
From Golden, CO
Dec 15, 2010
Just a teaser
I can't believe this route actually has bolts on it. I led it years ago with no bolts. At that time, it was at my limit, and I had no problem. This is crazy.

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By caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Dec 15, 2010
Murf wrote:
Sports climbing starts at the "one two" cottonspit.

This disgusting elitism is what's crazy!

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By Choss Chasin'
From Torrance, CA
Dec 15, 2010
Black Mountain
Murf wrote:
The FA only gets to decide on hardware on the FA! This is well known cottonswap. You can't change your mind after you get old and scared. Sexy Grandma should be restored to its original state. Bring a #3 Camelot and a blue "Wild Bliss". No pussification of climbing!


Three things Murf. Not trying to say those bolts shouldn't be chopped but I'd like some clarification as to your train of thought

First, I hope you plan on covering the holes your yanking the bolts from and hiding the scar you will be leaving on the rock.

Second, is it the "ugliness" of the bolt that you can't stand or the fact that you think people that clip bolts are pussies?

Third, if the FA gets to decide on hardware placements on the FA only then what the hell gives you the right to decide on the hardware placement through subsequent years?

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By caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Dec 15, 2010
Lost cause CC-- Murf doesn't respond to reason. He just goes into a blood rage when he sees bolts in josh, especially convenience anchors. You should see the mess he left behind when he destroyed the Big Moe toprope anchor a couple weeks ago. Socal's own Ken Nichols!!

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By Choss Chasin'
From Torrance, CA
Dec 15, 2010
Black Mountain
caughtinside wrote:
Lost cause CC-- Murf doesn't respond to reason. He just goes into a blood rage when he sees bolts in josh, especially convenience anchors. You should see the mess he left behind when he destroyed the Big Moe toprope anchor a couple weeks ago. Socal's own Ken Nichols!!


I don't expect him to change his train of thought or actions. I just expect an answer. Like I said before I don't give a crap about the bolts on DC.

I've been reading posts of his and it's fairly obvious (at least to me) that this is an ego show. Some people thrive on being the "big bad" and personally I'm not gonna get my panties in a ruffle over some machismo B.S.

I, however, will be disgusted if I see holes in the rock or the remnants of a chopped bolt. I will say though that chopping the Big Moe anchor is retarded because we all know they are gonna get replaced. So now all we are doing is destroying the rock further by adding and chopping bolts.

*EDIT* Murf I do hope you at least plan on chopping on lead right? I mean that in my opinion would be the non-pussy way.

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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 15, 2010
El Chorro
Adam Kimmerly wrote:
It's about time! I've bailed from the route multiple times now due to inadequate protection at the start. Thank you for taking a stand against the snobbish elitism that has kept this thing a dangerous route for so long. Now the rest of the climbing community can safely enjoy taking the sharp end on this one.


I seriously hope to God that there is not a large group (or any group) of people that agree with you. This is not about elitism... it's about respect. Do you not think that there are routes here in NC that I'd like to climb but choose not to because of the lack of protection? There are dozens! You know what... I respect the climb and the FA enough to either sack up, or choose not to do the climb.

It's kind of sad that there are "climbers" out there who don't understand this. We don't seem to have these problems here in the East.

I think this discussion calls for a Leonard Coyne quote...

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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Dec 15, 2010
El Chorro
OK after looking at the picture I just had to say one more thing:

Anyone who put bolts on something like that would get an ass whoopin' where I'm from. Really.

OK, one more thing... Anyone who decks on that route deserves what they get.

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By J.J
Dec 15, 2010
Ryan Williams wrote:
OK, one more thing... Anyone who decks on that route deserves what they get.

I'm all for not bolting but cmon.

So you're saying when I started to lead, because I had very limited experience and thought I placed adequate pro, that if I was wrong because of inexperience that I deserved to die?

FLAG


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