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By Guy Keesee
From Moorpark, CA
Dec 7, 2012
Big Boulder, just a bit downhill from Temple of Kali. Alabama Hills, CA.
How about a rock pipe up at the top????

FLAG
By eric schweitzer
From Bend, Oregon
Dec 7, 2012
SITTING ATOP THE CHIEF
I feel honored to be a part of historic page twenty. At the risk of getting back on topic, i would just like to get some confirmation on what appears to be established by now over the course of this thread regarding this route:

1. bolts haven't / won't eliminate all accidents on this route (because of the high volume of entry level trad climbers that manage either to miss bolt clips down low -see recent comment about aussie guy- or rip gear up higher on the route.)

2.The park service policy is clear that the bolts should not have been added originally , not to mention the chopped bolts getting replaced since.

Regarding #1 above: Mr. Peterson recently posted a list of names who have had accidents

By John Peterson 1 day ago

"Everyone should be aware of the tremendous toll the Double Cross has taken over the years. Those who have succumbed to Double Cross include many well know climbers, among them:

Amanda Tarr
Nathanial Beckwith
Inez Drixelius
Steven Cherry
Clint Cummins
Karl Baba
Stuart W. Marlatt
Ben Craft
Eugene Miya
Rex Pieper
Hal Murray
Greg Opland
Mad Dog
George Bell
Lord Slime
Tim Schneider
Tony Bubb

Question for you Mr. Peterson: are any of these people to your knowledge "experienced" climbers that made a "resonable" error low down on the route where the bolts in question might have prevented the accident? What i'm driving at is that it seems like there is allways going to be a good amount of inexperienced carnage on this route, bolts or not. But if "experienced" people are occasionally having accidents that the bolts in question could have prevented (due to "mistakes" that even experienced people occasionally make, foot-slippage and the like) , then perhaps this is an indication that the bolts should stay as they will undoubtedly prevent the occasional injury of both the experienced and inexperienced alike. What i'm kinda sorta advocating here is a more pragmatic approach to at least this particular route. First ascentionist ethics, strict trad ethics, (etc. etc.) are all well and good, but we are talking about a 5.7 here, so perhaps we can make an exception to all of those high and mighty principles that in most cases serve us so well, if for no other reason than to save the Yucca valley or 29 palms emergency rooms from having to pick up the tabs from these semi-frequent and perhaps often $$$expensive$$$$ accidents. The line seperating timeless classic and public nuisance is perhaps a fine one seen from the non-climbing taxpayers perspective.
Regarding #2: It seems that this thread is on the verge of becoming (in)famous, and is perhaps there already. Is there perhaps the risk of iritating the Jtree park service should they see that their official bolting policy (as unsophisticated as it is) is pretty much the last thing that gets mentioned in the discussion here.? I mean, it would be pretty bad if we (the climbing communitee at large)somehow shot ourselves in the foot on this one...stranger things have happened i guess.

Lastly, there have been quite a few "unsavories" that have weighed in on this one over the years, so i had better mention that i've done the route and lived to tell the tale...ya'll seem to prerequisite having a worthwhile comment on this for some reason.
Lastly, lastly, what happened to Murf in all this? I miss his shenanigans!

FLAG
By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Dec 7, 2012
OTL
Its like a snowball effect that keeps on going, except its more akin to a pile of shit that keeps on stinking and growing.

Yeah this thread, its like a shitball effect. That's it.

and we've all stepped in it.

FLAG
By coldatom
From Cambridge, MA
Dec 7, 2012
Jurassic Park
Matt N wrote:
this thread, its like a shitball

Really? I think it's kind of great that people are willing to hash it out here rather than just bolting/chopping/bolting etc.

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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Dec 7, 2012
OTL
coldatom wrote:
Really? I think it's kind of great that people are willing to hash it out here rather than just bolting/chopping/bolting etc.


I don't think anything has changed since the first page, though.
It just keeps piling up.

FLAG
By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Dec 7, 2012
Russ


ya dont even need bolts if you tape up like this. Big line on it today. I should open up a tape and koolaid stand at the base. Oh, and a first aid station.

FLAG
By John Peterson
Dec 7, 2012
In the Black
If you read my post, I never said that these people were involved in an accident. I was posting a list of prominent rec.climbers who became embroiled in an ancient and equally pointless discussion back in the golden days of rec.climbing when this same topic often reared its head.

To "succumb" to Double Cross is to take time which could much better be used for climbing and instead contribute to a meaningless flame war on the Internet.

That is all.

FLAG
By Kevin Mokracek
From Burbank
Dec 8, 2012
Triple Direct on El Capitan
The last time I did DC was last Winter with Jim Donnini. He had never been on it and asked if he mind he lead it. Jim geared up and began to climb, the ONLY piece he placed was in the horizontal crack at the bottom protecting the move into the crack. After that he walked the rest without placing a single piece. The guy know a thing or two about crack climbing. We then went over and he lead/soloed the Damper 5.9, the guy just cannot fall out of cracks, impressive.

As far as DC goes. It's fine the way it is. No more dangerous than any other climb of it's grade.

FLAG
 
By Tradman
From Lake Forest
Dec 9, 2012
Justin Tomlinson wrote:
SWEET!!! I win! I get to drill the new bolt! (...if I can beat Tradman to it)




Son of a Bitch!

FLAG
By Justin Tomlinson
From Monrovia, CA
Dec 10, 2012
Summit of Mt. Langley
Yeah, sorry Tradman. I pulled one of the bolts from Sexy Grandma (on lead) and rapped into DC. It was getting dark so I couldn't really tell if I got the bolt all the way in (oops!) it should make it through the season as long as too many Gumbies don't fall on it.

It's protecting the crux (the bulge) cause that's the hardest part and probably where most people fall. So anyway, it's done and we can move on.

FLAG
By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Dec 10, 2012
Russ
That Bill Donini is a crack machine!

FLAG
By toddgordon
From Joshua Tree, California
Dec 10, 2012
Justin;...you messin' wid my climb sexy grandma?......I'm gonna get Bob Donini and Rick Walling after you;.....they are both old;...but they are scrappy;...like a pair of badgers;......they are coming after you....unless you put that bolt back on Sexy Grandma (feel free to take those lame-ass pins out too, and replace them with big ol' juicy 1/2" bolts w/shiny Petzel hangers winkin' at ya from the ground). Thanks in advance.....(I know you will do the right thing......or else;..you know;.....Jerry Donini and Rob Walling;...you don't want that.....)....

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By Justin Tomlinson
From Monrovia, CA
Dec 12, 2012
Summit of Mt. Langley
Sorry,...Todd, was it? I heard that Royal Robbins and Evon Chinard (the first accentionists of The Nose on El Capitan in Yosemite) put up that Sexy Grandma with Evon's original pins that he made in his garage!

Anyway, Whoever these Russ Donini and Bill Walling guys are I'm pretty sure they haven't done as much for the Climbing Community as I have by protecting the "crux" of Double Cross, and they have no right to "come after me." With that being said, I'd love to meet them and we could settle this with good old fashioned diplomacy (i.e., beer).

Climb on guys! (and girls!)

FLAG
By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 12, 2012
Colonel Mustard
And so the circle of jerking continues....

FLAG
By Tradman
From Lake Forest
Dec 12, 2012
I'll BE BACK!

FLAG
By Logan Schiff
From Brooklyn, NY
Sep 5, 2013
So how many casualties have there been on this route in 2013?

I'm excited to make my firs trip to Joshua Tree this February. Double Cross is definitely on the list. Expecting a nice fat bolt to ease my way courtesy of Tradman.

FLAG
 
By Dann R
From Hermosa Beach, ca
Nov 8, 2013
Just emailed Murf. I don't know why anyone would waste their time chopping a bolt on a 5.7 or 5.8....let the lower level climbers have at it. Researching Mtn Project has led me to believe a vast majority of routes are 5.10 and above. ??? Am I wrong?
If so, then punters and newbies should be allowed the safety of lower level routes (5.9 and lower) being bolted and the ominous reality of 5.10 routes presenting a new and daunting challenge....
Just my 2 cents.
It boils down to the fact that bad ass 5.11, 12, 13, 14 climbers are really wasting their time making lower graded routes more dangerous for new climbers by chopping bolts. Who does that?

FLAG
By Tradman
From Lake Forest
Nov 13, 2013
Having top roped it many time over the past few weeks I no longer think it needs a bolt to be lead safely. The climbing isn't that bad you just have to know how to hand jam. With the beta available today I see no reason for the bolt. I have switch sides and support removal the of the bolt.

FLAG
By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Nov 13, 2013
Russ
Dann R wrote:
It boils down to the fact that bad ass 5.11, 12, 13, 14 climbers are really wasting their time making lower graded routes more dangerous for new climbers by chopping bolts. Who does that?


Who does that? One guy... and we all know who he is..

FLAG
By Craig Childre
From Lubbock, Texas
Nov 13, 2013
Potrero Mexico, Sport Climbing Mecca.
I still haven't seen the Deaths per year... or accidents per year? The OP was looking for them, and it got into a bolting debate...

FLAG
By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Nov 13, 2013
OTL
^ All you have to do is look at the pile of bodies and memorials at the base of the route.
That bolt will save many lives!!!

FLAG
By BScallout
Nov 13, 2013
Tradman wrote:
Having top roped it many time over the past few weeks I no longer think it needs a bolt to be lead safely. The climbing isn't that bad you just have to know how to hand jam. With the beta available today I see no reason for the bolt. I have switch sides and support removal the of the bolt.


Good to know. Have you led it? I am not about adding bolts to old routes, but this comment is hilarious. Top Rope Hero! Always entertaining to see old ass TR's resurrected.

FLAG
By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Nov 13, 2013
El Chorro
Tradman wrote:
Having top roped it many time over the past few weeks I no longer think it needs a bolt to be lead safely. The climbing isn't that bad you just have to know how to hand jam. With the beta available today I see no reason for the bolt. I have switch sides and support removal the of the bolt.


I haven't read the rest of this thread. Is this a serious comment or were you joking?

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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Nov 13, 2013
OTL
Ryan Williams wrote:
I haven't read the rest of this thread. Is this a serious comment or were you joking?


Just go back and read page 19.
This whole thread/discussion is a [never-ending] troll. (but almost as much fun as the route!)

FLAG
 
By caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Nov 13, 2013
Dann R wrote:
Just emailed Murf. I don't know why anyone would waste their time chopping a bolt on a 5.7 or 5.8....let the lower level climbers have at it. Researching Mtn Project has led me to believe a vast majority of routes are 5.10 and above. ??? Am I wrong? If so, then punters and newbies should be allowed the safety of lower level routes (5.9 and lower) being bolted and the ominous reality of 5.10 routes presenting a new and daunting challenge.... Just my 2 cents. It boils down to the fact that bad ass 5.11, 12, 13, 14 climbers are really wasting their time making lower graded routes more dangerous for new climbers by chopping bolts. Who does that?


Post Murf's response here! I want to see his elitist argument crushed by the compelling logic posted above!

FLAG


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