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By Randy
Dec 12, 2005
Vern at the crux of the route. You can also see <a href='/v/street-sweeper/106623020'>Street Sweeper</a> (5.12a; joins in from below left); <a href='/v/my-idea-of-fun/106703074'>My Idea of Fun</a> (5.12d; takes the horizontal dike ending where Swept Away does); Sole Fusion (5.12b/c; the upper diagonal dike); and yes, <a href='/v/raked-over-the-coles/105722638'>Raked over the Coles</a> (5.10d/11a, the straight, left-hand crack down and left). Copyright 2003, by Randy V.
This post was originally a comment in Double Cross

Double Cross is a very well protected route. The only part that is not is the first 15-20 feet (some gear available). But the first 15 to 20 feet is not where people are falling off and hurting themselves. It is higher up where pro is bomber and you can place as many cams as you are willing to carry up with you.

This is not an access issue or a land management issue. To claim so is irresponsible and misinformed.

The comment that times are changing is right on the mark, however. What has changed is that climbers who do not know how to place good gear or perhaps where to place gear and who do not know how to jam cracks are always jumping on this route due to its moderate rating.

"I can lead 5.10 in the gym or at some sport area, its only 5.7" is the problem. Many new climbers' expectations are unrealistic; their willingness to learn trad lead skills limited.

DC is not some R rated route that lures climbers to their doom. It is a "G" rated route (meaning good protection).

But what exactly are you proposing? Should climbers place big fat bolts right next to the crack so that someone straight of the gym can "safely" lead it. None of this makes any sense to me.

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By Woody Stark
Dec 12, 2005
This post was originally a comment in Double Cross

Sorry, I thought I made myself clear: If you, as an experienced climber, see someone start to do something questionable, and your intuition tells you they're possibly lacking experience and about to get in over their heads, speak up. It will usually be appreciated, particularly if you've got some gray in your hair and a few wrinkles on your face. The old attitude of you're on your own displayed by some is nowdays antiquated. There's too much potential for tragedy out there now.

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By Klimbien
From StGeorge Orem Littlton Vegas
Oct 5, 2009
Zion - GWT Great White Throne crag
As the the original post queries....how many deaths does the route have?? any good guestimates or approximation's?

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By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Oct 5, 2009
Russ
Klimbien wrote:
As the the original post queries....how many deaths does the route have?? any good guestimates or approximation's?


I've heard the total amount of victims could be stacked like cordwood at the base..... It appears to be quite the widow_maker.

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By Jesse Davidson
From san diego, ca
Oct 5, 2009
n cascades <br />
how about when you enter the park you have to sign something acknowledging the fact that Josh 5.7 isn't the same as your gym's 5.7?

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By RTM
Oct 16, 2009
If that many people were actually dying on the route, I think it would be incredibly irresponsible for the climbing community to let such a thing continue. This is not some cutting edge testpiece here, were talking beginners and inexperienced climbers. Something like this would be all that the "powers that be" would need to step in and start regulating the sport! I come from other 'dangerous' sports where the level of regulation is stifling. Certified training (costly), quarterly gear inspections (costly), annual license renewal (costly), currency ratings! Inevidably it will happen, but theres no reason to expedite the process.

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By Eric D
From Gnarnia
Oct 16, 2009
Born again on the last move of the Red Dihedral, high Sierras.
You old timers have more of a say than I do. But, I see the basic problem here being that newbies believe that all climbs in a guidebook will be well-protected and "safe." Sure, adding a bolt on the slab will keep some climbers from decking but that does not address the basic problem. Better protection will continue the myth that all climbs in a book are "safe," thus setting them up for failure in the future.

As discussed, a note in the new guidebook will help educate new climbers in a long-term way. A bolt makes DC safer but does no long-term favor to new trad climbers. The goal should be to have climbers learn to say "that's over my head, I need to do something else." It's a hard thing to say, but important. I said it just last weekend for the first time in years on Pitch 3 of Jabberwock in Cochise Stronghold.

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By Bryan G
From San Jose
Oct 16, 2009
Puffy jackets and Happy Boulders
Eric D wrote:
...But, I see the basic problem here being that newbies believe that all climbs in a guidebook will be well-protected and "safe."


No, the problem is that Double Cross is well-protected and safe, but people get hurt anyways. The slab is easy and not even that tall, and before the crux is a comfortable stance with enough bomber gear to hang a SUV off of.

I remember a couple years ago I had just learned how to place gear over the summer up in Yosemite and I was all ready for my first season of trad climbing in Joshua Tree. I wanted to do Double Cross but it had that infamous reputation, and I had probably only a dozen trad leads under my belt. Dogleg, the 5.8 just to the left ended up being my first trad lead in Josh. When I finally did DC a few weekends later I was baffled, it's not only easier than Dogleg, but the gear is more straightforward too.

But I do agree that if it's not Double Cross that gets them, it's just going to be something else. Placing a bolt at the crux will probably only increase the number of accidents on less popular campground moderates like Buissonier's and The Flake. So I guess the real problem is that people who don't know to handjam and don't know how to place gear are attempting to do so, on lead. Double Cross just happens to be the first climb they get in line for.

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By Drewsky
Oct 25, 2009
The bottom line here, as has been stated in fits and starts above, is this:

-Climbing is never 'safe'. Double Cross, despite being a popular, highly accessible, moderate climb, is also not 'safe'.

-Of two 'identical' roads, the one with more traffic will see more accidents than the other; neither is 'safe'. As stated by Randy, the number of accidents per climber is probably the same with respect to Double Cross as it is to many other routes in the park.

-Bolted climbs are not 'safe' because they are also rock climbs. Leaders have died during short sport climbing falls due to inexperienced belayers, bad rope management (feet behind the rope while falling), etc.

-The NPS knows perfectly well that climbing isn't 'safe'. Neither is backcountry hiking. Neither is stopping at the gas station on your way through Yucca Valley during a meth-induced shooting spree. Neither is...ad nauseum, ad infinitum. If the NPS really wants to restrict climbing, it will do so regardless and will find the excuse(s) necessary.

So what's the issue here? The first ascentionists aren't responsible for your own relative personal 'safety' on any climb: YOU are responsible for your own highly relative, highly subjective personal 'safety' during your whole life, including the time when, as a totally green young whippersnapper of a traditional climber, you step up to Double Cross as your first traditional lead due to its moderate reputation and proceed to get your ass handed to you properly! Few will wish you pain during your humbling experience, but you have to realize that simply by stepping out of your door, you are tacitly and/or explicitly accepting both the fact that life is NOT 'SAFE' and the fact that if you choose to participate in activities that are potentially even less 'safe' than life in general, you are even more responsible for your own 'safety'!

Ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

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By Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Dec 14, 2010
...
the two bolts at the start of "Double Cross" have again been replaced!!!...

PLEASE don't CHOP them!!!...

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By Adam Kimmerly
Dec 14, 2010
Locker wrote:
the two bolts at the start of "Double Cross" have again been replaced!!!... PLEASE don't CHOP them!!!...

It's about time! I've bailed from the route multiple times now due to inadequate protection at the start. Thank you for taking a stand against the snobbish elitism that has kept this thing a dangerous route for so long. Now the rest of the climbing community can safely enjoy taking the sharp end on this one.

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By Alex Whitman
Dec 14, 2010
Luxury Liner, Indian Creek
Adam Kimmerly wrote:
It's about time! I've bailed from the route multiple times now due to inadequate protection at the start. Thank you for taking a stand against the snobbish elitism that has kept this thing a dangerous route for so long. Now the rest of the climbing community can safely enjoy taking the sharp end on this one.


I think I just vomited in my mouth a little bit. It has been established that this route is not dangerous, it is just gangbanged by gummbies all day long. The law of large numbers tells us that eventually someone is going to make a mistake and get hurt. Place good gear and keep two pieces between you and the hospital, enough said.

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By J.J
Dec 14, 2010
Jesse Davidson wrote:
how about when you enter the park you have to sign something acknowledging the fact that Josh 5.7 isn't the same as your gym's 5.7?

Or any 5.7 anywhere else for that matter!

I feel as long as there is a warning that there are a high number of accidents on Double Cross, that would give the inexperienced leader a chance to re-think the idea of leading it. Something like Inexperience+Double Cross+Gravity=BAD

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By caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Dec 14, 2010
Alex Whitman wrote:
I think I just vomited in my mouth a little bit. It has been established that this route is not dangerous, it is just gangbanged by gummbies all day long. The law of large numbers tells us that eventually someone is going to make a mistake and get hurt. Place good gear and keep two pieces between you and the hospital, enough said.



Oh yeah? Your blatant elitism made me vomit in my mouth a little bit! How many broken bones will it take before you are happy?

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By Shawn Mitchell
From Broomfield
Dec 14, 2010
Splitter Jams on the Israel/Palestine Security Wall.
Oh the memories! One of my early trad leads...before cams. I clung forever, gripped bad, trying to get something in at the little x crack junction below the main crack. Protecting the upper crack on hexes was tricky too. Now, with small cams low and big ones higher, I'm not sure what the problem is...

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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Dec 14, 2010
My kinda simian
You really shouldn't have posted this on here Locker. Murf has an account here, so I'd assume he reads it on occasion. Word on the slabs is that he's the one that chopped the Big Moe anchors. He's probably headed out to DC right now.

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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Dec 14, 2010
My kinda simian
Bob Packwood wrote:
What's next? What's the next climb you'll have the balls to do once it gets retrobolted? I want to go do it before then, so let me know!!


And in jumps a Colorado boy, puffing his chest out and oozing testosterone all over the thread. Look Bob, we're all about safe climbing in SoCal.

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By Shawn Mitchell
From Broomfield
Dec 14, 2010
Splitter Jams on the Israel/Palestine Security Wall.
Ryan Kelly wrote:
Look Bob, we're all about safe climbing in SoCal.

Not that Islamofacsist Randy Somebody! :)

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By Phil Lauffen
From The Bubble
Dec 14, 2010
RMNP skiing. Photo by Nodin de Saillan
Ryan Kelly wrote:
And in jumps a Colorado boy, puffing his chest out and oozing testosterone all over the thread. Look Bob, we're all about safe climbing in SoCal.


OOOOHHH! I want to climb the bachar-yerian!!! Can we add some bolts to that? It's too dangerous as is!

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By Alex Whitman
Dec 14, 2010
Luxury Liner, Indian Creek
caughtinside wrote:
Oh yeah? Your blatant elitism made me vomit in my mouth a little bit! How many broken bones will it take before you are happy?


Infinite bones. This is not elitism, this is respect for the rock. It was here way longer humans and will be here long after we have overpopulated ourselves into extinction. Climb the rock as it is, place bolts where you don't have the huevos to do without and stay the fuck away from climbs that have been established bolt free. This is not a matter of safety, this is matter of respect. Can't climb it as it has been climbed for decades? Leave it alone, go Z-clip somewhere else. Can't take responsibilty for your own well being? Go back to The Spot and sue them when you twist your ankle. Remember bolts are forever.

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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Dec 14, 2010
My kinda simian
Alex Whitman wrote:
Infinite bones. This is not elitism, this is respect for the rock. It was here way longer humans and will be here long after we have overpopulated ourselves into extinction.



You have "Coexist" sticker on your hybrid car, don't you.

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By Alex Whitman
Dec 14, 2010
Luxury Liner, Indian Creek
Ryan Kelly wrote:
You have "Coexist" sticker on your hybrid car, don't you.


I ride the bus. With a coexist tattoo.

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By caughtinside
From Oakland CA
Dec 14, 2010
Alex Whitman wrote:
Infinite bones. This is not elitism, this is respect for the rock. It was here way longer humans and will be here long after we have overpopulated ourselves into extinction. Climb the rock as it is, place bolts where you don't have the huevos to do without and stay the fuck away from climbs that have been established bolt free. This is not a matter of safety, this is matter of respect. Can't climb it as it has been climbed for decades? Leave it alone, go Z-clip somewhere else. Can't take responsibilty for your own well being? Go back to The Spot and sue them when you twist your ankle. Remember bolts are forever.


The rock doesn't care if it has bolts or not you dirty idiot hippy!

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By Ryan Kelly
From work.
Dec 14, 2010
My kinda simian
Alex Whitman wrote:
I ride the bus. With a coexist tattoo.


With inks made from Elderberry and Beetroot?

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By Choss Chasin'
From Torrance, CA
Dec 14, 2010
Black Mountain
I don't care either way about double cross re-bolting I haven't led it yet and probably won't for a while cause it is always gangbanged. However what really pisses me off are these bolt chopping wars. I totally agree that when natural protection is available bolts should not be placed. What I despise seeing atop and on climbs are the remnants of these bolt wars. Choppers get all pissed that some one put a bolt somewhere and they go out and remove said bolt. Next week it gets re-bolted. Week after chopped again. Now I have to look at your ugly ass ethics debate etched forever into what was once a beautiful piece of rock. You choppers are doing just as much damage to the rock as the guy putting in bolts. Unless your painstakingly gluing over and covering the old bolt with perfectly matching rock dust think REAL HARD before you chop something. Having ethics is nice but thinking that your removing an eyesore by creating another is downright foolish.

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