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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Dec 7, 2012
Stoked...
I've only been to J-Tree once... and I had to lead this climb to get my buddy's gear after he failed to send. I think he couldn't get established in the crack above the low crux.

The gear was okay if I remember it but given the history of fatal injuries I can't help but think negatively about those adamantly fighting putting in a bolt in these cases. It is, in some sense, as if you condone people dying needlessly. I know all the ethics crap and all it means to me is those climbers hold some lofty principal of climbing above people's lives and that's kinda tough to swallow. It's not like it has an R rating... yet there's a long history of injury and death (for whatever reason). This shit doesn't happen at Cathedral or the Gunks as regularly on a single route here back East.

FLAG
By Tradman
From Lake Forest
Dec 7, 2012
CaptainMo wrote:
I can't help but think negatively about those adamantly fighting putting in a bolt. It is, in some sense, as if you condone people dying needlessly. I know all the ethics crap and all it means to me is those climbers hold some lofty pricipal of climbing above people's lives and that's kinda tough to swallow.


Thank you I couldn't have said it better. Whose else agrees I need a show of hands. Hopefully can get this done soon.

FLAG
By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Dec 7, 2012
Russ
The rap anchor at the top could use another bolt or two also. The whole climb is in need of a remodel to better suit todays modern climber.

FLAG
By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Dec 7, 2012
OTL
Randy wrote:
This post was originally a comment in Double Cross To my knowledge, none of the accidents on Double Cross have occured on the lower section getting to the crack (presumably where a bolt would be placed). What has happened is that climbers place gear in the crack and fall, and pull the gear.


Woody Stark wrote:
This post was originally a comment in Double Cross A final thought: I realize that the injuries and fatalities were related to poor pro placement in the crack.


"This post was originally a comment in Double Cross Wait a minute, please.... B. The place where ALL OF THE KNOWN ACCIDENTS have occured on this climb is AFTER you enter the actual crack (where there is perfect gear placements). There is NOT A SINGLE ACCIDENT REPORTED on the lower section of the climb where this "proposed" bolt would be likely located. (At least I am hoping no one is seriously suggeting bolting next to the crack!)
Get a grip people..." Randy Vogel


Oh and BTW, I think Tradman is trolling on this thread actually.

If you came off before the crack, grounded, and were wearing a helmet - I don't see how you'd end up dead. Gear is available. Land on your belayer if needed. Its not that high up yet and according the the auther of multiple Jtree guidebooks, the fatal accidents did not occur down there.

But don't let this stop us from getting to 20 pages - its Josh season...!

FLAG
By Guy Keesee
From Moorpark, CA
Dec 7, 2012
Big Boulder, just a bit downhill from Temple of Kali. Alabama Hills, CA.
""as if you condone people dying needless""

Mo... Doubble Cross has been a rite of passage into MANHOOD for over 40 years... To add a bolt or chop a handy helping hold would be a horrible travesty to climbing. Climbing needs BOLD climbs, here in CALI we don't have things like the Diamond or the Eiger or the Trapps. Those fearsome places are what make hard, tough, fearless rockclimbers spawn from Colorado, New York and Europe. We need DC so you can walk a young, fresh, right outa the gym n00b up to it and say "See, over 27 people have died - right here - don't be one of them."

These sort of climbs are nessary for the advancement of Cali climbers, everywhere.



FLAG
By Tradman
From Lake Forest
Dec 7, 2012
I am off to go climbing at JT for the weekend so I am done with this conversation! I will check with the rangers and see if its OK to bolt. I think you can NOT bolt in designated Wilderness area of Joshua Tree. Hidden Valley is not designated Wilderness area. Now I know how Karl Rove felt when he wouldn't call Ohio for Obama, yes Obama won(lucky little shit) but Karl later was proven to be right.

FLAG
By Guy Keesee
From Moorpark, CA
Dec 7, 2012
Big Boulder, just a bit downhill from Temple of Kali. Alabama Hills, CA.
Tradman.... PLEASE RECONSIDER, PLEASE DON'T DO IT!!!!!!

FLAG
By The Stoned Master
Administrator
From Pennsylvania
Dec 7, 2012
Day Lily.
Balance = place the bolt (some clearly want this). For those that don't want a bolt (ethics or whatever) don't clip it. You'll still get the same experience as the first ascensionist without clipping the bolt.

We are in the midst of a major change within our sport/life/love/community and the ever increasing number of new climbers is a huge factor. This discussion, this situation, is likely to become more and more common.

FLAG
 
By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Dec 7, 2012
Epic free solo with a pack on
Tradman: since when did anyone care about trad-climbing being "relevant" or pertinent to anyone but themselves? Climbing is the most selfish pursuit out there, and to do things to help mitigate others' bad decisions is a joke...

People should be free to make their own bad decisions and go through the learning curve that all those old crusty badass climbers have gone through...we are witnessing the pussification of America!!!!

FLAG
By Fat Dad
From Los Angeles, CA
Dec 7, 2012
Tradman wrote:
I am off to go climbing at JT for the weekend so I am done with this conversation! I will check with the rangers and see if its OK to bolt. I think you can NOT bolt in designated Wilderness area of Joshua Tree. Hidden Valley is not designated Wilderness area. Now I know how Karl Rove felt when he wouldn't call Ohio for Obama, yes Obama won(lucky little shit) but Karl later was proven to be right.

Troll is right. Good call.

Keep at it boys. 20 pages is just around the corner.

FLAG
By Fat Dad
From Los Angeles, CA
Dec 7, 2012
The Stoned Master wrote:
Balance = place the bolt (some clearly want this). For those that don't want a bolt (ethics or whatever) don't clip it.

Lame, lame argument. What's more lame is how often it's trotted out in support of putting in needless bolts.

20 pages yet?

FLAG
By Ed Rhine
Dec 7, 2012
Yeah... The not clip it argument is not really a reason to place a bolt. In that series of logic we should then bolt Indian Creek so that people that dont want to but expensive cams can climb it too and the rest can just not clip them. Ha... would love to see the thread on that one.

I am sure not one for seeing someone needlessly hurt or of course dead, but there are so many other climbs out there that fit into this category and people choose to either accept the risk or not and come back another day or not. This is just a climb with an easy rating in a convenient spot which makes inexperienced or over confident people have easy access.

I personally dont care about the bolt as much as the approval of the concept that would allow it to happen in more and more places. Assess your skills, accept the risk (or not).

FLAG
By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Dec 7, 2012
Epic free solo with a pack on
"Yeah... The not clip it argument is not really a reason to place a bolt. In that series of logic we should bolt Indian Creek to that people that dont want to but expensive cams can climb it too. Ha... would love to see the thread on that one."

Yeah, pretty stupid argument. It's like saying: I'm just gonna go ahead and take a dump on your floor, but just don't look it at don't worry about it. Or something like that

FLAG
By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Dec 7, 2012
OTL
People can still get hurt on sport routes, so we should just leave a TR hanging there, so if someone isn't up to leading it, they can still climb it safely. Problem solved and no additional bolts added. /thread

20 pages yet?

FLAG
By Nick Zmyewski
From Newark, Delaware
Dec 7, 2012
the frozen topout during a winter ascent
Whatever happened to personal responsibility? It is a climber's responsibility to decide before they start a climb if they are willing to accept the risk involved. If you think you need a bolt, don't climb it. Practice somewhere safer, work to better your climbing, and come back when you know you can do it.

FLAG
By The Stoned Master
Administrator
From Pennsylvania
Dec 7, 2012
Day Lily.
It is possible to apply a solution/logic to one situation. Just because someone puts a bolt on climb 'a' doesn't mean you have to do the same on climb 'b'.

Many of you are talking about climbing as if it has rules; this isn't the NBA or the NFL. Stop creating rules (borders,walls,etc) when there need not be any.

I read these forums at work to keep me (makes me feel) connected to climbing. So, so many of these posts turn into grown men and women literally bickering as if they were 10 years again.

Bolt or don't bolt. I'm for not bolting. if it were up to me bolts would never have been invented. However, as I posted, welcome to the new climbing world where the 'old schoolers' that put up many first ascents are on their way out.

If we want to maintain a solid community we need to tackle these issues balancing the whole when moving forward. A bunch of people spouting off opinions (like mine) is not a good sign for our future....

FLAG
 
By Ed Rhine
Dec 7, 2012
personal responsibility is something that no longer exists in the modern society... its seems that everything is someone else's fault. Unless the result is success of course and then everyone got there without any help and completely on their own of course ;)

FLAG
By Fat Dad
From Los Angeles, CA
Dec 7, 2012
"Many of you are talking about climbing as if it has rules; this isn't the NBA or the NFL. Stop creating rules (borders,walls,etc) when there need not be any.
However, as I posted, welcome to the new climbing world where the 'old schoolers' that put up many first ascents are on their way out."
Two points:
One, there are rules or rather ethics. Being ignorant of them does not mean they don't exist. It just means you are are unaware of them.
Two, just because us older climbers (I'm 49 so I probably count in your estimation) are "on their way out" doesn't mean you can erase their accomplishments. Without their legacy, climbing would look very different.

20 pages?

FLAG
By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Dec 7, 2012
Epic free solo with a pack on
I think heeding to this "new generation" of sport climbing, bolt-clippin' climbers is not a good thing. The traditional ethic should hold strong and stand up for what it believes in...

this reminds me of all the skiers of the new generation who only have an interest in how many little spins they can do off their ramps and such (plus their coats which look RETARDED...since when did ill-fitting, overly bright clothing become popular??) No respect for nature and the mountains!

FLAG
By The Stoned Master
Administrator
From Pennsylvania
Dec 7, 2012
Day Lily.
ethics is literally nothing more than opinion. I'm all for 'old school' trad ethics, its actually my passion. I'm stating embrace the new and old. Who's going to uphold our ethics? A referee? A team owner? WE as a community need to decide what happens.
But what happens when there is no right or wrong AND a decision needs to be made?

Again I truly have been baffled by bolts as I think they are an eye sore and if there is no way to protect naturally then move on. My opinion is just ONE of tens of thousands.

My point is we all have 'rights and wrongs' that keep us moving forward. As a community how do we decide what to do when ultimately there is no right or wrong (ex. Run it out or place its your choice, no referee, 1 piece of pro for an anchor or 3, no right or wrong, no referee, etc)?

FLAG
By Fat Dad
From Los Angeles, CA
Dec 7, 2012
The Stoned Master wrote:
My point is we all have 'rights and wrongs' that keep us moving forward. As a community how do we decide what to do when ultimately there is no right or wrong?

OK, this was well expressed and does a good job of saying where you're coming from. However, if you've done the climb, as I and many others on this thread have many times, you'd see that the climb protects really well, just like the photo shows.

Bolting a crack because others lack the basic competence to climb a straight-in crack safely is "wrong" according to Josh ethics, as it would be in most places, unless this was a sport crag in France or Italy.

FLAG
By Justin Tomlinson
From Monrovia, CA
Dec 7, 2012
Summit of Mt. Langley
What's the prize for the person whose comment makes this thread 20 pages? Ooh! They get to drill the long awaited BOLT!!!

FLAG
By Justin Tomlinson
From Monrovia, CA
Dec 7, 2012
Summit of Mt. Langley
SWEET!!! I win!

I get to drill the new bolt! (...if I can beat Tradman to it)

FLAG
By Crotch Robbins
Dec 7, 2012
Russ Walling wrote:
Maybe the best of both worlds.... a drilled hole with a piton in it?


Can't see how anyone could have a problem with that. I've got a couple of 3" bong that would be perfect.

FLAG
 
By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Dec 7, 2012
Epic free solo with a pack on
3" bong? Sounds pretty weak! What about a three foot bong??

FLAG


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