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By Tradman
From Lake Forest
Dec 6, 2012

Has a local Trad climber I have never put a bolt in in thirty years of climbing. I think a bolt down low on this runout America Classic is a good idea. This route was the first 5.7 put up anywhere. Open Book has a fixed pin just before first crux lieback and its consider an American Classic being the first 5.9 in the world. So why not protect the masses on this American Classic just like we do on Open Book. If we do hopefully I will still be able to climb it for the next thirty years with a bolt down low.


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By Eric Fjellanger
Dec 6, 2012
Me on top of Chianti Spire

Ben Brotelho wrote:
But seriously, the attitude that anyone deserves to be able to climb something when they're not competent to do it without getting hurt is going to ruin beautiful areas like Joshua Tree that I would like to someday visit! Let people get hurt, as long as the NPS doesn't close down climbing in the area then I couldn't care less. It seems like hundreds of people do the route with no issue, so why would anyone advocate a bolt? Climbing is dangerous, and "dumbing it down for the masses" as Marc puts it is disgusting! It's not even the sight of such a bolt that pisses me off, it's more of the principle that many seem to have that we should permanently alter gorgeous places and things for nothing other than convenience. Why not chop a step into the beginning of the climb to make the clip more safe? I'm sure some 'gumbie' will get hurt before making the clip! I think it boils down to an respect for nature, which many climbers seem to lack, sadly. Hopefully this opens up a whole new can o' worms!


Ben's post is exactly what this thread needs: climbers who aren't afraid to voice their well-thought-out opinions on this issue. Kudos Ben!

Surely there are some others we haven't heard from yet, who are willing to follow Ben's lead.


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By Tradman
From Lake Forest
Dec 6, 2012

Bolts have been around a lot longer than Cams and most of the classic cracks were climbed with out cams. So your saying No Cams either? Come On Nobody want to see people get hurt and is very popular route. I just saying Add a Bolt but do in Trad style making it save and we all win.


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By John Peterson
Dec 6, 2012
In the Black

Everyone should be aware of the tremendous toll the Double Cross has taken over the years. Those who have succumbed to Double Cross include many well know climbers, among them:

Amanda Tarr
Nathanial Beckwith
Inez Drixelius
Steven Cherry
Clint Cummins
Karl Baba
Stuart W. Marlatt
Ben Craft
Eugene Miya
Rex Pieper
Hal Murray
Greg Opland
Mad Dog
George Bell
Lord Slime
Tim Schneider
Tony Bubb

Please just stay away from Double Cross!

I'd recommend the Headstone instead, but that fell down in the 1992 earthquake.


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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Dec 6, 2012
Epic free solo with a pack on

Is that just injured people, surely not deaths! In a sick way that list of people gotten injured by this climb make me want to climb it even more!

Thanks Eric for the Kudos. To be clear, never climbed this route or even been to Joshua Tree, but I've always wanted to visit and I'd like it to be as pristine as possible for me and our future generations to enjoy! Who knows, maybe as standards rise, our grandchildren will look at that climb and not be able to believe we even roped up to climb it.

The Murder of the Impossible message extends to smaller and more subtle areas of life and climbing...style is important! More important than style is good judgment, which would have kept all those people from getting hurt.


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By Tradman
From Lake Forest
Dec 6, 2012

"More important than style is good judgment, which would have kept all those people from getting hurt."

Thats what I am saying. Joshua Tree is a Trad area maybe the last TRAD Stronghold in the country. So style is important and good judgment by the community. So putting a bolt in down low while on lead keeping with the Trad style and doing it in the name of good judgement. With so many visitors from out of town like yourself (Ben) thinking its 5.7 and easy. It is 5.7 but it not easy. Us locals know how to climb at Josh and 5.7 at JT is not easy.
Its like a handrail overlooking the Grand Canyon most of us know better than to get to close. Some have to get a closer look so you have to put up a handrail to protect the masses.


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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Dec 6, 2012
Epic free solo with a pack on

Why interfere with Darwinism? Fuck the masses! Both places I have climbed at the most in the East, the Adirondacks and the Gunks have fairly strict traditional ethics and people generally exercise good judgment. Very few injuries on a lot of climbs, and the few with "reputations," such as Boston at the Gunks, a 5.5 offwidth which has reportedly claimed some lives, remain bolt-free.

I have the private owners to thank for keeping that route and the cliff in general free from eyesores, but WE are all the protectors of public land like Joshua Tree and all national parks. I think the decrease in popularity on a climb like the one in question is not necessarily a bad thing, in fact I think it's a GREAT thing because I hate seeing people while climbing.


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By Fat Dad
From Los Angeles, CA
Dec 6, 2012

Tradman wrote:
So putting a bolt in down low while on lead keeping with the Trad style and doing it in the name of good judgement.

Can't believe I'm letting myself get sucked into this...

Isn't what you're saying antithetical to a trad ethic? Bolting cracks is not trad. Just because you bolt a crack on lead doesn't not make it trad. I'm all for thinning the herd. I survived my poor, stupid judgment. Let others enjoy the same process.


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By Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
Dec 6, 2012
Sure, I can belay

Marc H wrote:
I'm not in Boulder. And Ben's in upstate New York apparently. But since you're proudly displaying that you're in Boulder, would you send us the minutes? Thanks. I think you were attempting to be funny, but I also think you just introduced yourself to the kettle as a white dude from somewhere other than Boulder. Which is funny in its own right. :)


It is true-

At one time I was white,
Now I am gray

Once I followed Buddhism,
Now I follow Boulderism

The wise man sees change
And pockets it


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By Tradman
From Lake Forest
Dec 6, 2012

Being a Trad climber is like being a Republican today. We hold true to American Traditional Values and we lost the last election badly. We have to change or least say we are going change to include more people or we risk becoming irrelevant. My point is that us Trad climbers need to yield a little or become irrelevant. Sport climbers and out of town climbers now out-number us locals. If we make one route a little safer for the masses and yet do it in Trad style we all win and Trad climber can stay relevant.


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By Zack S.
From Prescott, AZ
Dec 6, 2012
Me

I'm so glad this thread is back, and that we're still talking about a classic 5.7 with a small run-out off the ground. Seriously, many boulder problems are taller than that run-out. Why not restore the climb to its original state, add an 'R' or PG-13 to the guidebook rating and be done with it?

On second thought, let's excavate a big-ass hole at the base and make it into a foam pit. The climb stays 'pure' and blowing the slab moves becomes super fun!


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By 419
From Denver
Dec 6, 2012
JR Token

Tradman wrote:
Being a Trad climber is like being a Republican today. We hold true to American Traditional Values and we lost the last election badly. We have to change or least say we are going change to include more people or we risk becoming irrelevant. My point is that us Trad climbers need to yield a little or become irrelevant. Sport climbers and out of town climbers now out-number us locals. If we make one route a little safer for the masses and yet do it in Trad style we all win and Trad climber can stay relevant.


There's a huge difference between Trad Climbers and Republicans..... Republicans are crazy! ;-)

Stay the course!


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By Fat Dad
From Los Angeles, CA
Dec 6, 2012

A foam pit and an on call therapist to help all those manly gym/sport climbers who get spanked by a 5.7.


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By Ed Rhine
Dec 6, 2012

Stick clip the second bolt on DC... wow. Have not been there in the last 10 years probably but on my first visit there I was super sketched because of the rep, but dont really remember it being anything bad at all. Why there are bolts on this I dont know. Primarily trad climb now but have done a far share of sport routes and even put some up but for me it was just a matter of climbing at Jtree a couple weeks and then doing that climb when I felt good. You accept risk every time you tie in and putting in bolts to protect a little run out seems like a dumb idea... but oh well. Really dont care as someone can just not clip them too.


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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Dec 6, 2012

Joshua Tree birthed rap-bolted sport climbing as we know it. Ya'll probably think it was Smith Rocks or something. Papa Woolsey, rap bolted in 1972.

Old trad dudes didn't bolt cracks? Of course not. Bolts took too long, they fixed pins in them instead. WTF is the difference? (aside from a bolt and hanger costing $3, and a LA costing $15).

Was Excalibur on El Cap put up as a trad route? Because looky here, a bolt 6" from the crack:


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By Tradman
From Lake Forest
Dec 6, 2012

419 wrote:
There's a huge difference between Trad Climbers and Republicans..... Republicans are crazy! ;-) Stay the course!


Sorry I didn't mean to bring politics into but its kinda like politics. If I May... old school hard-liners' like myself are just getting older and with fewer recruits these days. Gyms are popping up everywhere, most people start out has sport climber and few ever learn to safely climb Trad. This route being so popular I just trying to think of way for all of us to coexist and for Joshua Tree to be able to hold its traditional values of ground up style climbing. Maybe its my age and I am just getting softer. I am bothered by us hard-liners holding our ground even at the expense of the younger generation and their lack experience. When I go bouldering I don't bring a pad and you know why. My generation understand Rule # 1. New kids including X-generation go to gyms and actually practice falling. They don't understand and they think that if they boulder V8 and lead sport 5.11b and than show up at Josh see this classic climb is only 5.7. So they hop on Double Cross get hurt. We need to make some accommodation so this stops happening before the rangers get tired of it. Double Cross has probably become the most DANGEROUS CLIMG in North America and it doesn't have to be that way. Simple fix and win win for all parties involved including the rangers would be a bolt down low.


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By Crotch Robbins
Dec 6, 2012

What is more trad than a piton? I think you could probably whang in a good 3/4" angle at that first placement. BTW, that placement used to take a yellow alien, now you need a grey alien. Rock erosion, people. Human impact.

A good piton out right about 15 feet up will save the rock, reduce the need for the second bolt (maybe it can be removed!!) and be low enough to for a standard stick clip made from a six foot painter's pole. I mean a pole made for painters, not a 72" guy who paints.


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By Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Dec 6, 2012
Russ

Maybe the best of both worlds.... a drilled hole with a piton in it?


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By Guy Keesee
From Moorpark, CA
Dec 6, 2012
Big Boulder, just a bit downhill from Temple of Kali. Alabama Hills, CA.

"This thread just gets better and better. Can we make it to 20 pages? It shouldn't be too hard to come up with 3 more pages of nonsense regarding a route that most of us have no interest in ever climbing."

Ryan ... what the heck is wrong with you??????

I think that you can not call yourself a ROCK CLIMBER unless you have done a redpoint on Doubble Cross.

So you are saying - no admitting - that you are not a ROCK CLIMBER- !!!!!!!!?????????!!!!!!!?????????

And to Ben, from NY... if DOUBLE CROSS was in the GUNKS it would be rated 5.10D for sure.


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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Dec 6, 2012

Russ Walling wrote:
Maybe the best of both worlds.... a drilled hole with a piton in it?


Well, it IS the desert. That's WAY trad in the desert. Seems like half the stuff I've climbed on Wingate has drilled angles. You could probably just take the fixed ones off Sexy Grandma next door and use them. Nobody climbs that pile anyway.


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 6, 2012
Colonel Mustard

Guy Keesee wrote:
"This thread just gets better and better. Can we make it to 20 pages? It shouldn't be too hard to come up with 3 more pages of nonsense regarding a route that most of us have no interest in ever climbing." Ryan ... what the heck is wrong with you?????? I think that you can not call yourself a ROCK CLIMBER unless you have done a redpoint on Doubble Cross. So you are saying - no admitting - that you are not a ROCK CLIMBER- !!!!!!!!?????????!!!!!!!????????? And to Ben, from NY... if DOUBLE CROSS was in the GUNKS it would be rated 5.10D for sure.


Strong work.

I honestly heard from a guy that DC felt like 5.11 when he soloed it. So, for the lead, easily in the 5.10 range. In fact it's only 5.7 if you do a shoulder stand to get past that slick rock crux at the bottom. The start's like the start of Hobbit Book if the start of Hobbit Book were on roids, man.

Some other friends soloed it while passing jug wine up and a joint down, but I wouldn't mind them.


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 6, 2012
Colonel Mustard

Will S wrote:
Well, it IS the desert. That's WAY trad in the desert. Seems like half the stuff I've climbed on Wingate has drilled angles. You could probably just take the fixed ones off Sexy Grandma next door and use them. Nobody climbs that pile anyway.


Clearly you've never heard the phrase: getting railed like a sexy grandma. It's pretty localized to, well, me, but I'm pretty sure it's awesome and it originates directly from a day that old tease was taking all comers without so much as a courtesy douche in between.


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By Guy Keesee
From Moorpark, CA
Dec 6, 2012
Big Boulder, just a bit downhill from Temple of Kali. Alabama Hills, CA.

Colonel..... That must be a Nevada thing? Right.

In JT the grannys need a hit o crystal in between rounds.


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By Colonel Mustard
From Reno, NV
Dec 6, 2012
Colonel Mustard

Guy Keesee wrote:
Colonel..... That must be a Nevada thing? Right. In JT the grannys need a hit o crystal in between rounds.


I was sorta free styling there, I'm really not sure what the proper thing thing to do between Johns is. I'm sure it ranges, and hitting meth in between seems highly legitimate. Probably get you big points in Family Feud, that answer right there. "Can we see hitting crystal meth?"

"Other answers were courtesy douche, and dialing late night fortune tellers."


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By Chris Norwood
From Los Angeles, CA
Dec 6, 2012
Hobbit Roof

I know there's a lot of trolling to be done in this thread, but I'm going to express my non-sarcastic opinion. It's no misunderstanding that there is plenty of ways to protect yourself on this climb, and if you've climbed it, you can see the obvious stud of an old bolt AFTER the first placements. Once you're standing in the tub to the right of the crack (~20 ft up, if you start the climb that way), the stud is at your feet, and there are two more bomber pieces right there at your face, with another cam beneath you!

I've seen a guide start it up direct in the crack from the bottom as well, and there was a placement before this controversial bolt too!

Sure, a lot of lives have been claimed to this climb, but isn't that just a byproduct of that it might be the most popular single pitch of 5.7 in the country? When so many people climb it, you're bound to have people get in over their head on it. Just like sport climbers getting in over their head on Sexy Grandma, or the other new leaders that have troubles on The Bong.

There is absolutely no need for a bolt on this climb. The gear down low is definitely there, and if one can't climb the 5.5 slab at the bottom, there is no need for them to get on the climb.


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