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By Monty
From Golden, CO
Dec 10, 2008
Just a teaser

dogs... they're everywhere. I love dogs they are great! Big dogs, small dogs, whatever. Dogs at the crags have never bugged me before but in the past 2 weeks I've had 3 instances from shelf to indian creek where a dog randomly starts charging me barking, in a very aggressive manner. me being a friendly dog lover i don't want to hurt the animal, but the other side of me wants to kick it. Only 1 out of 3 of these instances did the owner actually do anything...
discussion?


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By seth0687
From Fort Collins
Dec 10, 2008
Leading the first ice pitch of the NW Gully-Thatchtop

I love dogs, but I have no problem kicking one if it gets aggressive with me and the owner doesn't do anything about it.....had this instance almost come to realization in Indian Creek, damn pit bull made such a fuckin ruckus I had down climb and go around it and come back up near the wall. Mean while the owner was just sitting there taping up. Encountered alot of dogs on that trip, but only one aggressive one thank god.

#6 camalot to the face lol.


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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Dec 10, 2008
Stabby

There's some posts in this regard in the comments on Shelf Rd. too. Starting to sound like a trend. If and when I have such an encounter, my energy will be directed towards the one who brought the animal. If they apologize, then a bit of an admonishment about keeping it under control or at home would follow.

Have a cavalier attitude as you described, and I'm getting into the owners face with a serious "WTF!?!" moment.

Wacking the animal could lead to shots and stitches. Its the A-hole who brought it that needs to be confronted. Remember, you deserve what you accept.


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By Monty
From Golden, CO
Dec 10, 2008
Just a teaser

i just know in areas like shelf where there are people camping there who arnt climbing, they may not be as friendly. hell i wouldnt be totally supprised to hear about a dog wandering into another camp, pissing on their tent and getting kicked or worse.

it all comes down to the owner. same story just keeps going on and on.


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By Richard Fernandez
From Flagstaff, AZ
Dec 11, 2008
Crack Test Dummies EPC

Not a fan of dogs at crags for many reasons. Walking on ropes, getting in the way of belayer, being a nuisance during food breaks and fighting amongst themselves. I have no problem letting the owner know they should leave the dogs at home or take it on a dedicated dog hike. We shouldn't have to be surrogate dogsitters for them because they want to expose their dog to the outdoors. Yes I have a dog, I take it for hikes, never take it climbing, and he is the friendliest damn thing on four legs. But he's a dog, he has very little if ANY self control. One of the last times we were at a local spot a dog was crushed by a huge rock, needed rescue in the end. If a dog was ever aggresive to me I would rail the owner about it. I took my dog to three 9 week obedience training courses, I really don't care for aggresive dogs and have no problem being vocal about it, I consider it education.


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By A.P.T.
From Truckee,Ca
Dec 11, 2008
So nice.

Well behaved Dogs are ok. Some should be kept on leashes and that goes for some people too.


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By Richard Fernandez
From Flagstaff, AZ
Dec 11, 2008
Crack Test Dummies EPC

I have seen some on leashes, most just bark incessantly. Dogs on leashes actually become more aggressive, as do some people.


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By Andrew Vojslavek
Dec 11, 2008
checking out the Maverick boulder in Clear Creek

I have a dog, but I do not bring him out with me. As a boulderer dogs on the crash pad = terrible idea. The idea of a crash pad is to create a safer fall, not let your dog sleep on it. I have landed on a dog, and do feel bad for the pouch since its owner lacked the common sense to train it not to be anywhere near a climb!

Story 1
I was climbing at the 420's with a friend. A climber lady has her dog with her, and when she is around the dog was fine. I had previously never met the owner neither had any of my friends. Once she leaves the dog goes insane. Barking, crying etc... The owner proceeds to comeback, and merely puts the pup on a leash... Eventually my friends and I have to remove the leash due to the fact the dog was a) Trying to escape, b) Wanting to commit suicide or c) Just wants to be a dog an play. Later in the day oh 20 minutes or so, the dog starts rummaging through our day sacks. My friends and I were unaware of this until we noticed a sandwich in its mouth. As soon as we started raising our voices at the dog the turrets stricken owner makes an appearance. The owner asked something similar to, "What's wrong?" The given reply in as polite of fashion as possible was, "Your dog is eating our food." Needless to say my group and I were anticipating apologies. Nevertheless we were asked, "Well what did he eat?" .... "A ham sandwich, chips, etc..." The owner paused for a moment, looking pensively... and stated, "Ok, good. He will be okay, he is not allergic to any of that."

Story 2

FYI Beta - Do not go anywhere towards Bierstadt on the weekends. I gave up on that rock climb and Evans A due to the 10 dogs having fights right underneath the climb and around the entirety of Area A.

"Goodnight and good luck,"

Andrew V


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By Ian F.
From Phx
Dec 11, 2008

I personally leave my dog home for two reasons. #01 - I dodn't want to spend my day making sure she is behaving. #02 - She does get in the way. This of course is only when I go to areas that are populated. Dogs just create problems, and most owners have the idea that it's just my dog and it does what it wants, and it's okay. I have yet to really see anyone pay attention to what their dogs are doing. Most show up climb, and let the mut run free.

I would put all the blame on owners whom don't think about other peoples experiences.


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By SAL
From broomdigiddy
Dec 11, 2008
good times. <br />

I tend to agree that it is mostly the owners fault. THey should know weather or not their dogs are crag savy or not. Or they could be as big of morans as their dog.

Most dogs if not all are of course territorial and if they park it at some routes they consider that "their zone" so they are gonna bark at every damn thing walking by. My dog does this ALL the time. So now I leave him at home cuase i was tired of having to apologize for his doggie nature.
the thing is that I know my dog will not bite someone unless they do somthing dumb. He is just being a dog. but the guy walking past doesnt know that and I would not blame him for socking my dog up side his big fat head. anyways. Keeping them on a leash just makes them more aggressive and really does not doo much for the dog. My dog would rather lay on the couch all day watching football then be on a LEASH outside. If you have a dog that shows aggression towards others 90% of the time. Leave it at home. most people will kick your damn dog and then end up kicking you when you get all bent :)

Besides. As listed above. There are lots of dogs that just help themselves to your pack. Trampling all over your rope and shizz. ITs annoying to have a dog that is not yours bouncing around your stuff and in your face. Where is your owner damnit???

And Speaking of pissing on a tent :)
This happened in our camp at shelf once actually. I Had my dog in the tent with me to avoid him doing such acts. OUr neighbors had 2 dogs that they did not give an F about. THey were constantly coming to eat my dogs food and piss on our shit. So finally I got sick of it and just released Big ol Brody on em. The dogs did not come back :)

anyways. Just rambling some stories.

Just keep your dogs under control. if that can't be done then leave em. If you dont have the common sense to know which kind of dog you have well... Maybe you should get the # 6 cam to the dome !!!


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By ROC
From Englewood, CO
Dec 11, 2008

"Maybe you should get the # 6 cam to the dome !!!"

Cams are expensive. My personal choice is an old school #11 hex. Plus they make that cool cow-bell sound when they bang into stuff.


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By seth0687
From Fort Collins
Dec 11, 2008
Leading the first ice pitch of the NW Gully-Thatchtop

ROC wrote:
"Maybe you should get the # 6 cam to the dome !!!" Cams are expensive. My personal choice is an old school #11 hex. Plus they make that cool cow-bell sound when they bang into stuff.


haha now your talking, I bet you could get a pretty good whip effect going to with that S.O.B. haha.


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By John McNamee
Administrator
From Littleton, CO
Dec 11, 2008
Artist Tears P3

Does anyone remember the great dog thread on clmbingboulder.com?

Wouldn't be great to be able to check out the archives...


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Dec 11, 2008
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

Pepper spray, like in those bear-repellant cans. Just as effective as anything else like a club or rock or kicking, but with no broken bones. Also works on the dog-owner if it becomes absolutely necessary.


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By Dustin B
From Steamboat
Dec 11, 2008
It's always a party.

This topic always produces the same results/comments, but it seems like its a good way for some people to share their viewpoints, weekly, and also for some folks to vent about their experiences, so I'll throw in my half cent.

I'm a dog owner of 4 years, over that time I have evolved as a dog owner and it has been a great lesson to me about how my actions affect the experience of others, especially strangers in the out doors. I got my dog when I started to climb, and was a bit of a hippie, thus I adopted the attitude of "yeah man, hes a free animal and I can't fucking leash him, I'd be lame." or "dogs are natural animals, they can take care of themselves" and off we went to the crag, which was usually a small but out of the way single pitch local crag, where I knew pretty much everyone (and everyone in Steamboat has at least one dog, town code) and the dog ran free, no problems. When I got into traveling to other areas, busy areas and multipitch climbing, that's when the conflicts began. I learned many things about myself and my dog. Many 'incidents' small and large reformed the way I think about my place in the world (at the crag) and my place as a dog guardian. That's right, guardian. By adopting a dog as part of your family/pack, you become the guardian, just like adopting a kid. Responsible for the dogs well being and also responsible for the results of your dogs actions. Most aren't magical beasts who can take care of themselves completely. Most aren't lassie and super intelligent knowing what everyone is thinking and doing. They are domesticated animals, who depend on their owners for food/shelter etc etc. Every dog owner needs to think in this way. This is the basic attitude that will lead to better time at the crags, because there are many options and ways of dealing with your dogs behavior and what is done is completely up to the owner.

Every time there was an incident, I began to feel more and more guilty. The actions of my dog, reflecting my lax and ignorant attitude, had detracted from the experiences of other climbers. Everyone going out has the same rights to happiness and a good time, strangers, bitchy strangers, nice strangers, me, my dog...everyone. My dog, Fred, is a really good dog, and I'm 99% certian that he would never bite someone seriously. I say 99% because ALL dogs are animals and as such, not completely predictable. Fred also is very social, and very concerned about the pecking order in the pack. The pack being anyone who may be with my climbing group, or everyone at the particular crag that day. When new people approach the crag, he barks and tries to assert himself over the new people and dogs. This entails barking, raising the back hair and trying to look as scary as possible. This scares many people who aren't dog savy. He ain't going to bite, but he is trying to see where he stands with the people/dogs. People who knew dogs, knew this, and acted confident, not aggressive, not concerned, and acknowledged the dogs presence without giving the dog any sort of upper hand and the situation quickly stopped, Fred became friendly and then it would be nothing but easy times. When the new comers reacted negativly, the problems escalated, the dogs behavior went downhill to the point of being out of control, he would run from me and there was nothing I could do. This led to some standoffish arguements and I was bringing problems to others. Eventually I began to see that unless I took action, then nothing was going to change, and I would continue to be a factor that could ruin part or all of someone's day. That's about the only thing that my dog does wrong at the crag, otherwise he's a lover, a fun and really well behaved dog, and when he is introduced to the new members of the pack, then no issues. The same goes for meeting people on the trail, Fred rushes, barks and tries to look mean and scary. So, I became a lame dog nazi, leashing Fred in situations where we would run into anyone and while we were at the crag. This helps alot, giving the option of introduction and even unleashing him once everything is cool. This helps alot in my situation, and I feel finds middle ground where everyone has a much better chance at having a good day. I know, seems simple, but it was a long process for me to reshape the way I dealt with the problem. Do I have all the answers? fuck no, nor am I qualified in any to write about dog training or psychology. But I have observed a lot of different things and have a few points for dog owners and non owners alike. Perfection for some people would be no dogs at the crag, anywhere ever. I agree actually, no dogs means no dog problems but, dogs, like all sentient beings are entitled to happiness, just as much as anyone and anything else, and thus have a right to be at the crag with their owners, if they are well behaved/controlled. Also, unless the laws change drastically, dogs at the crag are going to be a fact of life for all, and even though non owners aren't responsible, by changing some attitudes or behavior, a better chance of peace and happiness at the crag is attained

For dog owners, It's up to you to make all the decisions. If you know your dog is super cool, the classic crag dog (no barking, fighting, running off, chasing livestock, etc, etc) then do as you will, dogs have a right to be at the crag with their owners as long as it is safe of all. If your dog needs a bit more control, then leash it, away from the approach trail and que area if possible. Unless the dog is perfect, all dogs should be tied up while the owner is climbing or on belay, and unable to deal with any situation that may come up. If your dog is mean, and you think it could bite someone or really seriously fight with other dogs, leave 'em at home, and if that doesn't work, leave yourself at home too...or, you go somewhere else where you know other people won't be. For multi-pitch climbing, use your discretion. Some dogs can't be left alone at all, while some could be set up at the base of a big wall with food and water, told to guard the packs and be fine for a grade 6. If its short multi pitch and not too commiting, I bring my dog, and usually a friends who is cool being tied up for an hour or two, and leash em away from any potential rock fall. If its a long multi pitch, if doggies, going to be alone for 3 hours or more, then usually I leave him at home or with friends or something. As far as coyotes and cats go, If I don't have any other dogs and going into an inhabited area, then Fred stays home. It would be a bold coyote or lion who would try to nab two or more rowdy dogs together, I suppose its possible, but unlikely and I think that unless you feel uneasy, its a risk that is worth it to your dogs, cause they want to go out to the woods just as much, if not more, than you. Also, the normal rules apply at the crag, clean or remove your dogs dookie, don't let 'em excavate big pits, don't let them chase livestock, anywhere, ever. Remember, that everyone at the crag/on the trail has just as much right to a peaceful day as you.

For non owners, try and keep positive if anything happens. Dogs don't understand spoken word, but they know a hell of a lot about body language, tone, smell, and I bet they can hear your heartbeat. Negativity, being tense, aggressive or defensive will bring about a mirrored response. Remember that ALWAYS, no matter what size or breed of dog, as a human YOU are in charge, control, alpha. ALWAYS, no matter what. You have to KNOW this, without question and act the part. Confidence and a cool level head will go a LONG way in averting most trouble. Also, some behavior is natural, and no mater what you do, the dog may not change. Things like guarding his owners belongings, space or or the "pack" are natural and all dogs do this differently, the best thing to do is to try and respect this and just go around. Becoming defensive or yelling at the dog owner usually just escalates the negative situation, with the dog now having a reason not to like the approaching person. Granted, you have a right to defend yourself, and if you think that the dog is going to try and cause you serious harm even though your respecting his space, then you have the right to defend yourself, to the point of killing the dog if your life is in danger. Yeah a #6 or a hex or rock or whatever may be a good weapon to defend yourself, but think for a second how it would look to a dog who is only trying to protect his space, the sight of a defensive, scared and aggressive human weilding a big hunk of metal as a weapoon and approaching. Not so friendly me thinks. Again a confident body language, cool voice and attitude and respect of the dogs nature/space will go a long way in averting most trouble. You have every right to a peaceful day outside, and if need be, ask the owner to leash or control his/her dog(the nicer the tone the better, swallowing a bit of pride and being friendly even when you feel like yelling at the owner will always help.)It sucks, but Control of the other dog is the responsibility of the owner yes, and its the owners fault if their dog ruins your day, but to expect all owners to be in control is a bit lofty, so learning the best way to deal with animals is a good idea for non owners also.

I know I've gotten long winded (had a big cup of coffee just before I turned on the computer) but as a dog owner who has gone through lots of growing pains trying to include my dog in my life, I felt maybe I could offer a few new points that maybe aren't addressed often. Owning a sometimes rowdy dog, but feeling like I have the RIGHT to take him climbing when its appropriate, I've put alot of thought into trying to do the right thing for all. DOGGIE PEACE STARTS WITH, AND IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE OWNER. Couple that with a good attitude of non owners, even those who don't like dogs, will end almost all issues and lend a better experience to everyone, I feel. Thanks for reading, and I know I don't see things the same way as everyone, so please lemme know where I'm wrong. No, I don't want a flame war or argument, and yeah, you probably climb harder than me. What I'm really after is insight on how others see the situation, because I'm still learning, every day I take the dog out.

-Dustin


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By Tim Kline
From Littleton, co
Dec 11, 2008
Classic climb called Gossamer in the monster area of Rushmore

I'll bring my dog to a crag, if it's somewhat secluded and there aren't many people there. My dog is as friendly as friendly gets, but he does tend to bark and wine when other dogs are near and it doesn't just annoy other climbers, it annoys me!! He only comes with me maybe 2 or 3 times a year though, so it's not a constant thing. But if a dog were to get aggressive with me I agree that both the owner and the dog need to get a freaking #11 Hex to the skull!! But more the owner than the dog... the dog doesn't know any better, the owner should and he should know his dog doesn't know any better, which is why the dog should be at home!!


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By Dean Hoffman
Dec 11, 2008

Hey Richard, didn't know you were out at the pit the day ole Hank got cracked in the head, it was a long ordeal. However, I'm not sure I would use that as an example of why dogs shouldn't be at the crag. Ole Hank was sitting at the base of the route, right next to his owner who was belaying and her sister who was standing watching the climber. A block approx. the size of a microwave came off from about 40 feet up and hit Henry. Could easily have been either of the girls, as they were all within arms reach of one another. Henry is a full size Newfoundland and was knocked unconscious for around 90 mins and then was in and out of consciousness for the rest of the "rescue". Luckily he survived with no deficits and only a few stitches where the boulder hit him, right on the occiput and on his chin where it hit the ground. Talking with the vet it became very apparent that if that rock had hit any of the humans the out come would not have been as positive even if anyone was wearing a helmet at the sport crag.
Also that same day I seem to recall seeing several small children running around at the base of the cliffs tearing up vegetation and throwing rocks, had that same rock hit any of them I have no doubt that death would have been the result. However no one advocates leaving children home for fear that they may be hurt or possibly are annoying to other climbers, creating a nuisance and danger. (not advocating leaving the kiddos home just making a point)
Anyhow, thanks to the one female climber that came over to ask us if we needed any help, even after she knew it was "just a dog" that was injured. As for whether dogs "belong" at the crag well that seems like it will be an ongoing debate. But remember before you start swinging your cams and hexes conversations are usually more productive than confrontations.


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By Buff Johnson
Dec 11, 2008
smiley face

anyone try a HANO with a poddle? great fun.


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By Tom Hanson
Dec 11, 2008
Climber Drawing

I love other people's dogs.
Medium-well.
The meat falls right off the bone.
Mmmmmmmmm!


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By Cody Cook
From Colorado Springs, CO
Dec 11, 2008
more of the same

I love dogs. In fact...I love dogs so much that I don't have one right now.

The reason I say that is because I know that between work, family (wife and three little kids), and climbing with said family or other friends, I know that I won't have the time to give the dog the attention that it deserves. After I do all of those other things, which are my priority, that poor animal is going to get the little time that I might have left over, which won't be much, and it's going to go crazy. It will be ill-behaved, untrained, probably get itself and me in trouble, and this will all be my fault, not the dog's. Thus, out of my great respect for dogs, I choose not to have one.

One poor trend I see here in CO, and I'm sure in all other outdoor-recreational areas where mp readers might live, is that it's just trendy to have a dog. I see many people move here, quickly go to REI to get their softshell and state-issued Nalgene bottle for the office job (I'm an engineer too), and then get a dog (and give it a name based off a local resort town, mountain range, or singular peak). Problem is, often times they aren't getting the dog because they have a deep love and respect for the animal, it's more because it's just trendy. Much like their sticker-covered Nalgene bottle. These dogs are then given little attention, training, or discipline, and are then taken to the crags to fit in with the other cool climbing dog-owners. The dogs then proceed to piss off all of the other climbers, which leads to initiating these type of threads.

One bad example of this resently occurred while I was out hiking with my 2 and 3-year-old sons. I had the 2-year-old on my back, and the 3-year-old was walking next to me. Just as we returned to the parking area, and were walking around a truck, a large dog raced around the corner of the truck, and snapped right at the face of my 3-year-old who was about the same height of the dog. Holy crap! I've never felt a feeling like this before. It was indescribable. In an instant my parental instinct kicked in and my body was about to do some dog-killing before my mind could comprehend what was going on. Fortunately, the dog did not actually bite my son's face, but decided to just take a posture of barking and growling, right at my kid. About half a second later the poor owner came sprinting around the truck and quickly restrained the animal before it attacked my son and/or I killed it. This all happened in a span of about 5 seconds, but it drove the point home to me. To the owner's credit, he took full responsibility for his animal's actions, and apologized to me and my son about 10 times before we left, but the damage was done. My kid was spooked for a while after that. This was a prime example of just getting an animal because it's cool, but not respecting the animal enough to give it lots of time to discipline it, train it, and keep it restained when around other people.

Thus the reason that I love dogs so much that I don't own one.


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By trundlebum
From Las Vegas NV
Dec 11, 2008
Somewhere in Tuolumne, sometime early 80's

Monty said:
"it all comes down to the owner. same story just keeps going on and on."

I have always said it this way:
"It's not the dogs that are the problem, it's the people"

Meaning: an irate or aggressive dog is not that big of a deal. You knock it out, bust some ribs with your boot etc...
But then you have to deal with the master, are they irate and aggressive as well ?

I have cared for aggressive dogs and I kept them away from general public, but now and again they would get into trouble and I would have a neighbor at my house screaming. I would always say "Hey if the dog gets off the leash and is near you, your property or family and cause any kind of threat to you... Take'm out !"

Recently at Red Rock I ventured up to the base of a crag and there was a dog there, unleashed. It was pretty aggressive. The owner had descended and returned just after we arrived. She calmed the dog and asked for a forgiving attitude from me and my partner. I responded with "Yeah no worries, it's just a dog... but are you going to forgive the person you see that has that animal on a spit over a fire?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yah know what you call a three legged black dog in a Philipino neighborhood ?
"More for later!"


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By erik wellborn
From manitou springs
Dec 11, 2008
Top of Bridalveil, feelin good

Tom Hanson wrote:
I love other people's dogs. Medium-well. The meat falls right off the bone. Mmmmmmmmm!


I prefer 'em medium rare. 'Specially Golden Retrievers and Labradors with A1 steak sauce.Yummy!


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By Deaun Schovajsa
Dec 11, 2008
You wanna' look like this when ya get old!

At crowded sporto type crags, my dog is better behaved than half of the noobs and a third of the old timers. At the rest of the crags there are few people and no real hassles.


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By Hank Caylor
Administrator
From Golden, CO
Dec 11, 2008
Yoda

I have a Bull Mastiff and a Pug. They both stay at home (though they have never bitten anyone). I've been walking down from the crags and almost got killed by a dropped #2 Camalot, yah I kept it. Life at the base of a route is not totally safe.

Dogs like a moderate trail run more than a day roped to a boulder at the crags. IMO


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By Richard Fernandez
From Flagstaff, AZ
Dec 11, 2008
Crack Test Dummies EPC

Dean, did'nt mean to step on any paws. I heard the story second probably third hand and it went like this, dogs was chasing other dog, talus and scramble rock smashes poor pooch. Sorry if I got it wrong I'll use more verification next time. And I just sited it as an example based on the untrue version I heard. Thanks for clearing it up and not dogging me too bad.

I do have kids, four to be exact, they all climb with me. I bring them so as to teach them the ethics of our chosen sport, something my dog could never achieve. Mine were not pulling out plants that day though. Matter of fact mine were not there that day.

Cheers and give my best to Hank and his owner,

R


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By Hank Caylor
Administrator
From Golden, CO
Dec 11, 2008
Yoda

Richard Fernandez wrote:
Cheers and give my best to Hank and his owner, R


Her name is Mrs. Caylor. No problemo mi' amigo.


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