Do You Say Something?

I guess this is more of an ethics question. If you're out climbing and you see another party climbing off anchors they built that are incredibly wrong—and I don't mean like they are using one carabiner for their master point, I mean like violating every safety rule out there—do you say something? While I'm a beginner myself, another group came along and noticed it too. They were just as sketched out as we were. But nobody said anything. I figure hey... mind your own business right?

But if someone falls and gets hurt or dies, that might affect everyone who climbs there due to closures or restrictions.

So do you politely say something or just shrug and carry on?

You mean like this anchor?

I don't. It's never well received.

I used to be in the "mind my own business" camp but then came to the realization that gross negligence like that could lead to everyone's day being ruined and someone's life being ruined. So I've taken to the approach of breaking the ice with pleasantries and then asking, "Hey, are you open to some suggestions about your anchor/belay technique/setup/etc?" \

Most of the time people are receptive and the conversation goes well. Sure there are those stubborn or too-embarrassed-to-admit-it types but at least I know I tried and most likely those folks still learn even if they get defensive or offended.

Bill Kirby wrote: You mean like this anchor? I don't. It's never well received.

Took me a minute to see that biner on the backside of the tree... yikes.

I make up a story about someone dying that way. Doesn't have to be true.

"Hey man, I just wanted to let you know that some dude died on an anchor setup like that in the Gunks last year. What happened was (x, y, z). It was pretty horrible. He fell and was paralyzed from the neck, then spent an hour bleeding to death while his partner went for help. You could fix it by doing (A, B, C)"

Even if it's not well received at the time, guaranteed it sticks in the back of their mind for the next anchor.

That's sad if access is your biggest concern.

Grow a pair. Know your shit. Learn to speak up tactfully. They may or may not listen.

I have carried seriously injured people out multiple times. It's nott fun.

Yeah, I figure there's a polite way to go about saying something. But there is one more important fact to know about this situation: it was also a class. As in... the person who set the anchor was teaching a group of people how to climb. And it wasn't a situation where the instructor was showing them an example of a bad anchor. They were actively climbing on it. So that sort of makes it tougher to say something.

Do you say something to the people putting their lives in danger and don't know it? Or do you say something to the "instructor" who probably thinks they know what they're doing?

If I were paying some "adventure company" to take me climbing for the day and I found out they were doing something super sketchy to put my life at risk, I'd want to know.

But then again... none of my business, maybe.

^^^ even more important to speak up then. Try to get the instructor aside so you don't embarrass him at first. Take it from there.

Bill Kirby wrote: You mean like this anchor? I don't. It's never well received.

Man... that's nothing compared to what we saw.

Greg D wrote:^^^ even more important to speak up then. Try to get the instructor aside so you don't embarrass him at first. Take it from there.

Aight, thanks :)

Why don't you share with us what was wrong with his setup. Maybe it was fine. Just because someone agrees with you doesn't make you right.

Jason Halladay wrote:I used to be in the "mind my own business" camp but then came to the realization that gross negligence like that could lead to everyone's day being ruined and someone's life being ruined. So I've taken to the approach of breaking the ice with pleasantries and then asking, "Hey, are you open to some suggestions about your anchor/belay technique/setup/etc?" \ Most of the time people are receptive and the conversation goes well. Sure there are those stubborn or too-embarrassed-to-admit-it types but at least I know I tried and most likely those folks still learn even if they get defensive or offended.

+1

Waiting....

to quote a TSA PSA: "See something, say something"

especially in this day of gym-to-crag climbers

Greg D wrote:Why don't you share with us what was wrong with his setup. Maybe it was fine. Just because someone agrees with you doesn't make you right.

Yes, if you are going to say something, make sure that it's a real valid safety concern. I've seen "toperope heroes" get upset when an anchor isn't made of 13+ mm static line connected to 3+ anchorpoints with lockers on everthing. Just because someone isn't building an anchor your way doesn't make it inherently dangerous. Of course, that said, many people are dangerous too.

I'd like to hear any and all input about the top rope anchor, however I do appreciate tact.

This past weekend we set up a top rope using a sliding 'x' on cordallette. A more seasoned climber told us that "we are going to die" with that setup. If a bolt blows the top rope system would be shock loaded without redundancy, a master point would've served our purpose much better and safer. We'd defended our system, opting for equalization, as the bolts were pretty new and bomber. Our defense irritated the other climber, and he simply repeated what he said, with a louder and perturbed tone. His partner even seemed to be over the dude's attitude.

In reality, we could've had a civil amd informative discussion, in which he could've pointed out that two runners connected to locking biners would've served our purpose well and provide the redundancy the anchor didn't have.

I listen and pay attention to pointers and information each climber has about systems, because I want to absorb as much knowledge as possible. In fact, I appreciate these conversations, because it's how I learn to be a safer and more efficient climber and leader.

He was in a bad mood that day and when he shared his opinion, it was a bit offputting simply because of the tone and attitude he'd had.

Having a bad day Greg D? You're coming off pretty intense in a couple forums...

All good anchors should be reasonably serene. This is why most competent instruction focuses on these governing principles rather than on teaching 1 specific method as if it's the only way to do it. Therefore, even if it's not a rigging method you've used before, you should be able to evaluate whether or not it is safe and provide feedback accordingly. What the group does with this feedback is up to them, but as others said: if you see something, say something.

Dylan: did you at least tie limiter knots? A quick overhand on each side of the biners minimizes the shock loading he is describing, although even without it you would be hard pressed to argue that a sliding X toprope is a "yer gunna die" situation. I agree that one should be tactful. When I was climbing with the CMC one time, a guy gave me crap for using a BFK, calling it a "fake knot." He wanted me to instead run independent legs of webbing and attach them all separately to the masterpoint carabiners, equalizing by tying off the strand with an overhand knot. I pointed out that achieving true equalization with this method was next to impossible and that you ran a risk of triaxial loading...but, some people are set in their ways.

I saw a guy build an anchor from a Prussik cord and a daisy chain. My partner offered him some of our gear and he said no thank you. Neither one of us told him his anchor was BS. Next time I will

dylan grabowski wrote:I'd like to hear any and all input about the top rope anchor, however I do appreciate tact. This past weekend we set up a top rope using a sliding 'x' on cordallette. A more seasoned climber told us that "we are going to die" with that setup. If a bolt blows the top rope system would be shock loaded without redundancy, a master point would've served our purpose much better and safer. We'd defended our system, opting for equalization, as the bolts were pretty new and bomber. Our defense irritated the other climber, and he simply repeated what he said, with a louder and perturbed tone. His partner even seemed to be over the dude's attitude. In reality, we could've had a civil amd informative discussion, in which he could've pointed out that two runners connected to locking biners would've served our purpose well and provide the redundancy the anchor didn't have. I listen and pay attention to pointers and information each climber has about systems, because I want to absorb as much knowledge as possible. In fact, I appreciate these conversations, because it's how I learn to be a safer and more efficient climber and leader. He was in a bad mood that day and when he shared his opinion, it was a bit offputting simply because of the tone and attitude he'd had.

So, by your line of reasoning, if both bolts are new and bomber, why not just clip one? If you have a magic x and you are confident that one leg will not fail, you might as well just clip one bolt... Id argue that you should clip both bolts and minimize extension in both legs of the anchor. Just because you dont think the bolts will fail (they almost certainly will not) doesn't mean that you should remove precautions. If you really must use a sliding x, add some limiter knots. It doesnt take much additional time and really makes the anchor better.

Say something.

Unless it's my anchor, then mind your own damned business!

The last thing I need is someone telling me:
- My EDK might roll
- Girth hitching slings is bad
- I should use a locker on every piece in the anchor
- I should back up that giant tree, because ERNEST and SERENE
- That munter will ruin my rope
- Fabric on fabric is dangerous
- Metal on metal is dangerous
- That FoE needs a backup knot
- That biner probably has micro-fractures in it now
- You should top rope through steel biners
- Is that a body belay? You should get a grigri
- The grigri is safer than an ATC, you know
- I've seen you fall 5 times on that rope now, you should retire it
- Guns don't kill people, bowlines kill people

I'm sure I can come up with some more bs after I get some sleep.