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DL, Erosion control needed. East Bluff.
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By jon jugenheimer
From Madison
Jun 16, 2014
hi

This is something that I believe needs to be addressed, but not sure how to. (Doug?)

There are two spots on the East Bluff that are succumbing to gravity and real erosion control methods are needed. The zone below Gills and the tree/slope zone below Mouse/Thoroughfare. The dead tree that was holding up the land below Gills rolled off the last summer (?) and we are losing the slope and will eventually lose the whole flat area if we wait. The tree below Thoroughfare exposes more and more of its roots every summer and some day we will lose the whole thing that supports the start of the climb. I know we want to all make the climbs longer, but this is not the way.

I would love to do more than just start this conversation, but with my schedule I am not around to talk to the right people at the Park to make this official if it needs to be official, so thus, a MP thread is born.

Thoughts? What can we do as a community?


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By Ed Wright
Jun 16, 2014
Magic Ed

I've been expecting the tree below Thoroughfare to fall over any day now. In fact, I'm surprised it's still standing. I don't know if there's really anything that can be done except hope it happens in the middle of the night and not on a Sunday afternoon. I suppose we can hire some tree experts to remove it professionally.


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By Boots Ylectric
From Roselle IL
Jun 16, 2014
Tebow Climbs.  Bet you didn't know that.

I've noticed the erosion issue goes beyond that. This winter was brutal on a lot of areas. Some of the access gullies and climbers paths really suffered some drastic changes this year. I think people really need to take the time and consideration to tread lightly, go around areas that look beat up, and not always take the shortest way across an area. Our traffic through these areas definitely won't help, so we have do everything we can to conserve them.


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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Jun 16, 2014
Stoked...

Boots Ylectric wrote:
I've noticed the erosion issue goes beyond that. This winter was brutal on a lot of areas. Some of the access gullies and climbers paths really suffered some drastic changes this year. I think people really need to take the time and consideration to tread lightly, go around areas that look beat up, and not always take the shortest way across an area. Our traffic through these areas definitely won't help, so we have do everything we can to conserve them.


Obviously every situation is different... but I've always been taught to fix the problem areas rather then divert people to fresh areas which will then be the next causality. Might be good to consider walkways,stairs and water bars, etc rather then just diverting people. Like a muddy trail, I was taught to walk through it rather then around because it only makes the problem bigger to walk around the edge.


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By Doug Hemken
Administrator
Jun 16, 2014
On Everleigh Club Crack.  Photo by Burt Lindquist.

I would love it if a group of us was working on this. At the moment we have interest from Hoofers, the Century Challenge folks, the CMC (which is where our new Access Fund guy is), and the WCA.

(I have to say, MP has not proven very useful for pulling together people who have actually worked on anything.)

The Supt, the Regional Parks Director, and the Friends group are all open to our good intentions.

Right now (and for the past 30+ years) the DNR's major stumbling block is "not a designated use area." To them that currently means no "built" structures.

Replacing the log under Gill's with another log, probably no problem. Building steps ... they are very "uncomfortable" with that (well, they'll just say no). The improved trail up to the Old Sandstone probably exceeded what they are willing to approve ... on the other hand, they haven't complained, despite me walking them up there and pointing it out to them.

I think there's room for us to push, and I think the critical time if we are going to have any hope of mitigating climber impact is the next 2-3 years.


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By Boots Ylectric
From Roselle IL
Jun 17, 2014
Tebow Climbs.  Bet you didn't know that.

Morgan Patterson wrote:
Obviously every situation is different... but I've always been taught to fix the problem areas rather then divert people to fresh areas which will then be the next causality. Might be good to consider walkways,stairs and water bars, etc rather then just diverting people. Like a muddy trail, I was taught to walk through it rather then around because it only makes the problem bigger to walk around the edge.



That's a really good point actually.


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By James M Schroeder
From Sauk County, WI
Jun 18, 2014
Photo by Pete "Coach" Arndt

I think six people, a chainsaw, some shovels, some crow bars and a case of PBR could fix a good deal of those problems in one weeknight. I can bring everything but the people.


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By Jay Knower
Administrator
From Campton, NH
Jun 18, 2014
Technosurfing, Rumney. Photo by Seth Hamel.

+100 on erosion control.

Doug Hemken wrote:
I would love it if a group of us was working on this. At the moment we have interest from Hoofers, the Century Challenge folks, the CMC (which is where our new Access Fund guy is), and the WCA. (


Wouldn't it be more effective to form a group that absorbs all those separate groups into one uber-powerful DL climbing advocacy group?


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By jon jugenheimer
From Madison
Jun 18, 2014
hi

Well I am in. If we can just do it on our own, (at least start with Gills) I am available on the weekend of the 28/29th. We can easily replace the old dead tree with some nice green treated lumber, and some rebar going into the earth for support and then back fill it with dirt.

As far as the Mouse wall to the Rack area, I think something real will need to be done. I would LOVE to see a terraced platform all made of Quartzite. I think that will take more than a day and a bunch of people...and actually be ascetically pleasing to the surrounding areas.


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By James M Schroeder
From Sauk County, WI
Jun 18, 2014
Photo by Pete "Coach" Arndt

Jon,

I was just thinking about up-cycling some already downed timber (or maybe that death-spear at the base of Upper D), strategically positioning a few boulders and some dirt here or there. Keep it low-key and au naturale per Doug's concerns.

I think you're answer is the right one - if we can get park approval to do some serious terracing in both places. I would love to see a series of 12"-16" terraces cascading below Mouse's and Thoroughfare. We could even run ditches down the sides filled with scree to allow proper and controlled drainage. Even a full-on construction program like this would not take too long if it was well considered beforehand and enough helpers showed up.


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By jon jugenheimer
From Madison
Jun 18, 2014
hi

good call on dead timber. Let's plan a work day for that. Will you be back from the Big's by then?


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By James M Schroeder
From Sauk County, WI
Jun 18, 2014
Photo by Pete "Coach" Arndt

jon jugenheimer wrote:
good call on dead timber. Let's plan a work day for that. Will you be back from the Big's by then?


I don't leave until the middle of July. I am here for the next few weeks, but have weekend (climbing) plans. Besides, I think this would be best done, especially if a chainsaw is involved, on a weeknight.


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By jon jugenheimer
From Madison
Jun 18, 2014
hi

Ah, thought June...

Good call on a weeknight. Maybe Monday the 30th?


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By James M Schroeder
From Sauk County, WI
Jun 18, 2014
Photo by Pete "Coach" Arndt

jon jugenheimer wrote:
Ah, thought June... Good call on a weeknight. Maybe Monday the 30th?


As of right now I believe that works for me.


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By angieL
From Madison, WI
Jun 18, 2014
axe in dryerhose

So as far as more extensive work for the mouse's area goes, I do have a friend/past co-worker who works for the ice age trail now and worked for the DNR trail crew for years up til last year. Basically, trail building is what this guy does and he's very good at it. He also loves DLake and I'm sure if I asked he would totally take a look at it and be able to advise a course of action. Since he's former DNR, knows Steve and Jim (park superintendent/assistant) he would also likely have a good handle on what is "permissible" in a non-designated use area and how staff would feel about work being done. All it would cost is taking him climbing and getting a beer afterwards. He's out doing Ice Age Trail work right now for 2 weeks or so, but is this something you guys want me to pursue? If we propose doing anything that's more than shoring up the area with the missing log or more extensive, I vote we do it right the first time and getting some expert eyes seems like it may help.


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By jon jugenheimer
From Madison
Jun 18, 2014
hi

I completely agree Angie, please ask him for help. We should do this little project right the first time, and the park should know about it, approve it, and be satisfied with the results.


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By D.Buffum
Jun 18, 2014
Orgasm Direct, Devil's Lake, 5.11a  c. 2008

I'm willing to volunteer time and labor to anything that is officially sanctioned by the park. I'm also willing to liaison with park officials, though because Doug has an established relationship he might be a better choice.


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By Doug Hemken
Administrator
Jun 18, 2014
On Everleigh Club Crack.  Photo by Burt Lindquist.

The only problem with fixing the log under Gill's is who uses the chainsaw in the Park - must be FISTA certified on state land.

Do you want to propose just one or two things, or go the DNR with the whole laundry list of areas that need attention and our proposed remedies (or range of remedies)?

I have no problem proposing more than we think they'll approve. If we want to do more than the log, we should involve Rich and Dobbe.

More people than just me knocking on DNR doors let's them know that there are more folks out here - we lend weight to each other. Plus we don't have to wait until the next open spot in my schedule ....

If it's Monday the 30th, I may be able to show up.


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By D.Buffum
Jun 18, 2014
Orgasm Direct, Devil's Lake, 5.11a  c. 2008

Doug Hemken wrote:
The only problem with fixing the log under Gill's is who uses the chainsaw in the Park - must be FISTA certified on state land. Do you want to propose just one or two things, or go the DNR with the whole laundry list of areas that need attention and our proposed remedies (or range of remedies)? I have no problem proposing more than we think they'll approve. If we want to do more than the log, we should involve Rich and Dobbe. More people than just me knocking on DNR doors let's them know that there are more folks out here - we lend weight to each other. Plus we don't have to wait until the next open spot in my schedule .... If it's Monday the 30th, I may be able to show up.


I believe Erin Holmes just took a training to get certified for chainsaw use by DNR. I'll check with her.


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By James M Schroeder
From Sauk County, WI
Jun 18, 2014
Photo by Pete "Coach" Arndt

What are the consequences of operation by a non-FISTA-certified operator?

The only time "chainsaw" (actually the only mention of "saw" for that matter) usage is addressed in the NR 45 is about noise (45)(3)(e). It makes no mention of the need for a FISTA certification to obtain a noise permit.

Can we use a bow saw?


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By Doug Hemken
Administrator
Jun 19, 2014
On Everleigh Club Crack.  Photo by Burt Lindquist.

I couldn't tell you if it was Law or Code or policy, but here is their form
dnr.wi.gov/files/pdf/forms/2500/2500-120.pdf


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By James M Schroeder
From Sauk County, WI
Jun 19, 2014
Photo by Pete "Coach" Arndt

Sounds like this only applies if either:

A: The person running the chainsaw is officially volunteering for the DNR, not operating for his or her own purposes.

B. Is using a department chainsaw.

"Volunteers without appropriate training will not be allowed to operate power equipment. Volunteers using DNR power equipment must
have the same or equivalent training as Department staff.
"


My analysis is that if we get a noise permit, show up with our own equipment, find an acceptable downed log, cut it to size and place it at the base of Gill's/Brinton's; that we will not have done anything illegal. I do not think we need to go through the rigmarole of becoming official DNR volunteers and being FISTA certified.

After all it's just a chainsaw, not a chemical weapon, and we're trying to preserve the park in a responsible way. I have a hard time seeing the DNR having any issue with this - even if we skipped getting the noise permit. Maybe I am giving them too much credit for being rational, sentient beings, but that's my two-cents.


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By jon jugenheimer
From Madison
Jun 19, 2014
hi

We can use a hand saw to make just a cut or two on one log. We really don't need a chain saw, we are all climbers right?!?


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By James M Schroeder
From Sauk County, WI
Jun 19, 2014
Photo by Pete "Coach" Arndt

jon jugenheimer wrote:
We can use a hand saw to make just a cut or two on one log. We really don't need a chain saw, we are all climbers right?!?


I'd even consider ponying up for one of these.


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By D.Buffum
Jun 19, 2014
Orgasm Direct, Devil's Lake, 5.11a  c. 2008

@James:

I think if you show up at the East Bluff and start running a chainsaw without getting consent of the park ahead of time, you're asking for trouble. It may not strictly be against the rules, but you're gonna ruffle some feathers. Even if what we're doing is for the benefit of the park, and a good idea, they're going to want us to run it by them first.

Who wants to litigate a citation that could have been avoided by filling out some paperwork ahead of time? And why aggravate an already tenuous access situation?


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By jon jugenheimer
From Madison
Jun 19, 2014
hi

+1.


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