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By Doug Hemken
Administrator
Jun 12, 2014
On Everleigh Club Crack.  Photo by Burt Lindquist.
It's not the DNR's job to make climbing safe for us, but they do manage environmental impact, user conflict, and to a lesser extent, aesthetics. Climbers and the DNR trying to ignore each other is not a great management strategy, in my opinion. Among other things, that's why we don't currently have legal access to the New Sandstone.

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By Dylan B.
Jun 12, 2014
Orgasm Direct, Devil's Lake, 5.11a  c. 2008
James M Schroeder wrote:
My thought is that we, as a climbing community, ought to maybe sit this one out. Getting in bed with the DNR to "manage the aesthetic impact" of a user-group might not want to be something that we want to condone. Climbers have a significant aesthetic impact on the park (chalk, noise, erosion, neon lycra, webbing across the trails, etc.) and it seems to me that arguing from those terms puts us in a difficult position if the DNR were to ever confront the community about those issues. AKA "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." The safety argument, at least the climber-specific safety argument, also paints us into a corner. While the safety concern is to some degree valid; couching the argument in these terms essentially admits that climbing cannot be done safely in the legal presence of a helicopter. Again I am not sure this a great (or true for that matter) position for the climbing community to put itself in. Just my two-cents.


I see your point. A counterpoint would be that the DNR needs to balance the rights of its various user groups, and that in this case the thousands of climbers who visit the park every year have a more vested interest than the couple of dozen who fly over it in a helicopter (and don't pay for entrance). Further, the interest of the helicopter users is only marginally infringed if we ask them to stay back 500 feet from the East and West bluffs; the interest of the climbers in safe, peaceful enjoyment takes priority.

Not sure if that argument would win the day with the DNR.

Again, I suggest approaching the helicopter company as an organized group and expressing our concerns and proposing a compromise solution. E.g.: please stay 500 feet away from the most popular areas during the most popular times, and away from any visible climbers at all times because it may be a "hazard" within the meaning of the law.

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By Doug Hemken
Administrator
Jun 12, 2014
On Everleigh Club Crack.  Photo by Burt Lindquist.
Approaching the helicopter operator if this continues should absolutely be the first step. It would take a lot of work to even get the DNR involved.

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By Jay Knower
Administrator
From Campton, NH
Jun 12, 2014
Technosurfing, Rumney. Photo by Seth Hamel.
Doug Hemken wrote:
I'm working on it. We've gotten to the Regional level, and I'm hopeful.


How are you going about it? What's the plan? Are you acting as an individual or on behalf of a group?

I agree with James. Don't pick a fight with a helicopter. Just be glad that you have relative peace and quiet 99.999% of the time.

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By Dylan B.
Jun 12, 2014
Orgasm Direct, Devil's Lake, 5.11a  c. 2008
Jay Knower wrote:
How are you going about it? What's the plan? Are you acting as an individual or on behalf of a group? I agree with James. Don't pick a fight with a helicopter. Just be glad that you have relative peace and quiet 99.999% of the time.


Jay, I think Doug was saying he's working on opening Old Sandstone. Maybe I misunderstood.

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By Jay Knower
Administrator
From Campton, NH
Jun 12, 2014
Technosurfing, Rumney. Photo by Seth Hamel.
D.Buffum wrote:
Jay, I think Doug was saying he's working on opening Old Sandstone. Maybe I misunderstood.


Old Sandstone is open, right? New's been closed for going on 20 years now, and it was closed on shaky ground.

My understanding is this: An "amateur naturalist" hiked up there and did not like the impact. So, the New was closed and the Old remained open so that a study could be conducted (not sure by whom) to determine the impact climbers have on an area. There was a time when you had to sign in to climb at the Old. The study ended at least 10 years ago and the New remains closed. Pretty fishy.

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By Dylan B.
Jun 12, 2014
Orgasm Direct, Devil's Lake, 5.11a  c. 2008
Jay Knower wrote:
Old Sandstone is open, right? New's been closed for going on 20 years now, and it was closed on shaky ground. My understanding is this: An "amateur naturalist" hiked up there and did not like the impact. So, the New was closed and the Old remained open so that a study could be conducted (not sure by whom) to determine the impact climbers have on an area. There was a time when you had to sign in to climb at the Old. The study ended at least 10 years ago and the New remains closed. Pretty fishy.


I meant "new." Interesting history anecdote. I wonder if it's true?

Off the record, climbers have had some negative impact on Old Sandstone. Every year I see more broken holds and fresh sandy surfaces on the rock. I wish people would not go up there in the spring or after a rain.

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By James M Schroeder
From Sauk County, WI
Jun 12, 2014
Coffee outside of JTNP
Doug Hemken wrote:
It's not the DNR's job to make climbing safe for us, but they do manage environmental impact, user conflict, and to a lesser extent, aesthetics. Climbers and the DNR trying to ignore each other is not a great management strategy, in my opinion. Among other things, that's why we don't currently have legal access to the New Sandstone.


I'm not suggesting we ignore the DNR, I am suggesting we ignore the helicopter...[edit to add]such that the DNR ignores us.

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By sonvclimbing
From bolder city
Jun 12, 2014
cowboy over tower
I do believe the helicopter has just as much right as you, being there. get over it.

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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Jun 12, 2014
tanuki
sonvclimbing wrote:
I do believe the helicopter has just as much right as you, being there. get over it.


+1000. And the conceding tone about when talking about "tourist" and "pink little faces" makes you come off like a real jerk. I don't want to get into a war of words about this, but if a helicopter leagally flying around where you are climbing for (gasp!) 1:30 is some sort of safely issue for you and your partner, then you probably should not be climbing in the first place. If you want perfect conditions, stay in the gym.

I am sure that it was annoying, but it is a public and heavily used area. Learn to share, and if you want solitude get off the beaten track.

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By Doug Hemken
Administrator
Jun 12, 2014
On Everleigh Club Crack.  Photo by Burt Lindquist.
Jay, I've been working on the New.

Two guys on MP (Boots and me) annoyed about a new helicopter with a new and aggressive pilot is a long way from anything that anyone could act on. As I think I've suggested a couple of times, it will take quite a few annoyed people with some real documentation of the problem to even raise the issue.

You have a number of pieces of the story on the New correct: amateur herpatologist, both the New and the Old closed (the Old is close to a rattlesnake den area), Old reopened after a couple of years and the New left closed with promise of a comparison after a couple more years. I maintained the sign-in data at the Old, to show the total use and seasonal pattern, for about 2 years (3 seasons). That was 20 years ago. We had numerous meetings with the DNR over a period of several years, in the mid 90s, and we discussed statewide climbing management issues. Almost no one involved on either side of the table is still around and involved with Devils Lake.

I always love the irony when folks who aren't from around here (not you, Jay) and have no clue about the details of this pilot on these flights, tell me with utter confidence that they know best. They are correct about one thing: there is some noise around here that is best just ignored!

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By jon jugenheimer
From Madison
Jun 13, 2014
hi
RPG?

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By James M Schroeder
From Sauk County, WI
Jun 13, 2014
Coffee outside of JTNP
jon jugenheimer wrote:
RPG?


HA!

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By Burt Lindquist
Administrator
From Madison, WI
Jun 13, 2014
Trying to stay warm up on Brownstone Wall Red Rocks, NV
Is it illegal to moon annoying helicopters buzzing to close to the cliff face?
Maybe if enough of us older climbers are in the same place and easily visible from the wind shield of the chopper (cliff top) we could give em a no doubt less then stellar show.

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By Boots Ylectric
From Roselle IL
Jun 13, 2014
Tebow Climbs.  Bet you didn't know that.
NC Rock Climber wrote:
+1000. And the conceding tone about when talking about "tourist" and "pink little faces" makes you come off like a real jerk. I don't want to get into a war of words about this, but if a helicopter leagally flying around where you are climbing for (gasp!) 1:30 is some sort of safely issue for you and your partner, then you probably should not be climbing in the first place. If you want perfect conditions, stay in the gym. I am sure that it was annoying, but it is a public and heavily used area. Learn to share, and if you want solitude get off the beaten track.



It's not a war of words. You raise valid points. You're right I came off as a jerk. I was pissed. I had a beginner who needed constant coaching that I couldn't provide that day, and it frustrated me. So I didn't start this thread in the manner I should have. It was 1:30 per fly by, and it's multiple fly by's for hours at a time. If he gained even 80 feet of elevation he's not echoing off the bluff walls at deafening levels for the people climbing and hiking below and him and his passengers experience is virtually identical. So, he should learn to share as well. Be familiar with what takes place in the park below and understand the noise you create when you're that close to the bluffs.

I know Devil's Lake is not the place to go for solitude. I have my little spots to go at the lake that get me away from the crowds a little bit when I want that solitude and it usually works out for a relaxing day of climbing. And when I can get the heck out of the Midwest I definitely do so. Unfortunately for midwest cragging this is what I got.




And Jon Jugenheimer, I've been thinking about adding an RPG to my rack. Any recommendations?

FLAG
By Jay Knower
Administrator
From Campton, NH
Jun 13, 2014
Technosurfing, Rumney. Photo by Seth Hamel.
Boots Ylectric wrote:
It's not a war of words. You raise valid points. You're right I came off as a jerk. I was pissed. I had a beginner who needed constant coaching that I couldn't provide that day, and it frustrated me. So I didn't start this thread in the manner I should have.


Level-headedness and agreement on a MP thread? What's this world coming to?

Bravo Boots!

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By jon jugenheimer
From Madison
Jun 13, 2014
hi
I would recommend the classic 1980's soviet/Rambo/Iron Eagle movie from '86 style...

RPG 7
RPG 7

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By Doug Hemken
Administrator
Jun 13, 2014
On Everleigh Club Crack.  Photo by Burt Lindquist.
I was thinking a simple rock would do, but I like your mooning idea, Burt (and today is the full moon)!

Damn, suddenly I really miss Bechler. He woulda sorted em.

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By Burt Lindquist
Administrator
From Madison, WI
Jun 13, 2014
Trying to stay warm up on Brownstone Wall Red Rocks, NV
A cheap Laser pointer from Walgreens may do the trick....
or is that just an urban myth?

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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Jun 13, 2014
Stoked...

Are these puppies illegal in the park???

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By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Jun 13, 2014
tanuki
Boots Ylectric wrote:
It's not a war of words. You raise valid points. You're right I came off as a jerk. I was pissed. I had a beginner who needed constant coaching that I couldn't provide that day, and it frustrated me. So I didn't start this thread in the manner I should have. It was 1:30 per fly by, and it's multiple fly by's for hours at a time. If he gained even 80 feet of elevation he's not echoing off the bluff walls at deafening levels for the people climbing and hiking below and him and his passengers experience is virtually identical. So, he should learn to share as well. Be familiar with what takes place in the park below and understand the noise you create when you're that close to the bluffs. I know Devil's Lake is not the place to go for solitude. I have my little spots to go at the lake that get me away from the crowds a little bit when I want that solitude and it usually works out for a relaxing day of climbing. And when I can get the heck out of the Midwest I definitely do so. Unfortunately for midwest cragging this is what I got. And Jon Jugenheimer, I've been thinking about adding an RPG to my rack. Any recommendations?


Hey Boots. Thanks for your reply and cheers! I hear where you are coming from, and can see where it might be VERY annoying. I hope that you and the rest of the climbing community can resolve this issue in such a way that everyone is happy.

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By jon jugenheimer
From Madison
Jun 15, 2014
hi
I packed my RPG today and stood on top of Britons all day waiting, but no chopper. Must have had been to windy. That being said, my partner couldn't hear me 20 meters away It was windy.

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By Ed Wright
Jun 16, 2014
Magic Ed
Some people get their thrills climbing rocks, others taking helicopter rides--it's all good.

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By Dylan B.
Oct 13, 2014
Orgasm Direct, Devil's Lake, 5.11a  c. 2008
These two past weekends I had my first encounters with the helicopter, and I have to say it was really obnoxious.In one afternoon, the heli passed by me six times, and hovered behind me with the passengers watching me climb. I am not there to be someone's aquarium fish. I don't mind hikers gawking because they usually don't make much of a disturbance (and when they do, I can yell at them). But the gawking helicopter is really rude, and all I can do is sit on the rope and make obscene gestures to tell them to piss off, which, in fact, I did. Unsurprisingly, the pilot made obscene gestures back at me.

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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Oct 13, 2014
Stoked...
Dylan B. wrote:
These two past weekends I had my first encounters with the helicopter, and I have to say it was really obnoxious.In one afternoon, the heli passed by me six times, and hovered behind me with the passengers watching me climb. I am not there to be someone's aquarium fish. I don't mind hikers gawking because they usually don't make much of a disturbance (and when they do, I can yell at them). But the gawking helicopter is really rude, and all I can do is sit on the rope and make obscene gestures to tell them to piss off, which, in fact, I did. Unsurprisingly, the pilot made obscene gestures back at me.


Moon em or whip ur wang out and start beating in like a mad man on a rope haning off a cliff... that would probably make them leave... and call the cops.

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