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This from the Access Fund's newest Vertical Times. "The Forest Service was impressed by the action (removing fixed draws-addition mine); however, the concern has been elevated to a level at which the Forest Service will likely issue a temporary closure to the cave in order to conduct an archaeological survey to determine what, if any, impact climbing may have had on the resource."

The entire article can be found here: www.accessfund.org/site/c.tmL5KhNWLrH/b.4992351/k.9093/Verti>>>
The issue is Summer 2012.

Don't u guys have a lot of caves down that way?

"Chufftard", I know you know the answers, but I'll speak up.

I'm sorry one of your favorite climbing areas is closed. It is (was) fun & unique climbing, I visited a few times and might occasionally climb there again if it were open. I haven't yet formed an opinion on whether we "should be" climbing in a place where people had lived and climbing literally on soot from their fires. I guess that's sort of a personal moral decision I never gave much thought to.

However, I'm surprised the area wasn't closed to climbers and non-climbers alike a long time ago. It is clearly a significant arch site, as it's on the National Register of Historic Places. Being close to the road, it's prone to vandalism and illegal digging. I don't know if there's anything still there that might be damaged by traffic (the survey might answer that). Regardless of whether you or I value them, arch resources are supposed to be protected by the 100 year old Antiquities Act and others. It is a little confusing to me that fixed draws are a central part of the issue, compared to overall traffic and route cleaning. I do know Crystal Cave has been a discussion item at the F.S. for a few years now.

It sounds as though NMCRAG and some of the area's main developers were involved in discussions with the FS. Though it may be too late in this instance, I'd encourage you to get involved through NMCRAG/Access Fund. I'm sure someone at Stone Age can point you the right direction better than anonymous posting on the internet. I haven't been involved and don't know any details.

As I understand it from what I've read, the closure is temporary, for now. So there is a possibility it may reopen. Again, I'm not "in the loop" though.

As I'm sure you know, the main reason so few people care is because not very many people climb at the area regularly. The reasons why are:
-Crystal Cave pretty much starts at 5.12 (too hard for all but dedicated climbers, especially when the style is unusual and difficult to learn; this is the main reason)
-because the rock is chossy
-the beta wasn't published until 2006 (and even with the book it was hard to tell what was what, as new variations were added)
-possible ethical objections to climbing at an arch site

Also, because it is a newer area, there isn't a nostalgia aspect to this place for very many climbers, as might be had at an area with a longer climbing history.

In other words, only talented and serious climbers have a lot at stake here. It would be tough to motivate the 5.9-5.11 climbing masses to care. I would venture to guess that the number of people who visited Crystal Cave more than, say, 5 times, is very small, compared to most any other published climbing area in the state. I know it's a big loss to you and some others from ABQ who climbed there regularly, but this area sees a tiny fraction of the traffic compared to the Tower, Diablo, El Rito, Palomas, Socorro, Las Conchas, White Rock, Gilman Tunnels, even Big Block or the Dungeon. You can call those who don't care "gumbies" or "chuffers" if it makes you feel better. Others might argue there are much bigger access issues to put effort toward these days in NM, most obviously Enchanted Tower and Last Chance.

I'm sure this is really frustrating for you. I was really bummed when a few of the Jemez areas I climb at often (Dungeon, Upper East Fork, Area 37, Cochiti) were temporarily closed for 11 months following last summer's fire; and many of us were really concerned that the Dungeon might remain closed longer and that the road to Cochiti might never reopen.

I hope there's a way a good solution can be found.

Thanks for the bump, chufftard. If you have the time and energy after the meeting I'd love to hear a recap here after the meeting (I won't be able to make it down from Los Alamos.)

Perhaps those involved with this issue could research how Cova Gran at Santa Linya, Spain was handled. That is also an archaelogical site and a major climbing area. Local climbers were able to work out an arrangement that allows continued access and protecting the archaelogical resources. Since the climbing occurs on the roof of Crystal Cave and the resources are under the ground there really isn't a valid reason to close this area.

In Spain they built wooden platforms over the digging sites and fenced off a couple of spots, but that was about it. Seemed to work OK for Chris Sharma & all the locals. Sounds like the USFS is handling this in a biased manner.

I was at the meeting and I think that it is an important enough issue that I will take the time to discuss. At this current time, the climbers who attended the meeting have decided to remove any tat or fixed gear and NOT climb in the cave until this is resolved.

The Access fund may have dropped the ball but that is because the ball is huge and made of molten lava. The real problem seems to be much larger than one cave and one recreation group.

The cave is not really that unique in designation, as the c-tard mentioned, but it is the perfect place for the tribe to begin a process of reclamation, and who knows where it all will go. Jemez Pueblo would like an agreement with the FS that gives them joint "custody" of the archeological area that is the Jemez National Forest, not just Crystal Cave (I am not a lawyer, so I probably have the wrong term). This is the beginning of a process and not the end, that much was made clear when Bryan P. read the notes of the last Jemez/FS/climber meeting.

Crystal cave most likely has no "real" archeological significance because of recent excavations. I read several studies that claimed the site had been "completely excavated". There have been several excavations, not just one. Perhaps William will post these for everyone. We discussed covering the floor, as has been suggested and done before, but then the concept of a 3-D artifact was introduced and I got lost. Soot? According to our climbing friend archeologist that is a last ditch effort, indicating that any real scientific evidence is long gone.

However, the access fund lawyer believes that it is possible to close the cave without any real scientific evidence to support the archeological claims. Sadly, our archeologist friend agreed, leading me to believe that this is just one huge song and dance for the public. Song and dances concern me.

The archeological site that is the Jemez National Forest was not protected by the Govt. and it should have been. The largest impact of these vandals is the road that was blasted between Crystal and the Soda dam by our own government years ago. The damage is done. There is no more damage being committed to this National Recreation Area, but this is a way for a few in the FS with dirty consciences to try and make right their lack of oversight in the past. These people blame climbers because it is so much easier to scapegoat a small group of people than to take accountability for your own actions (this is not the entire FS and certainly not the director of the region).

So yes, we do need to be proactive, very proactive. We need to demand management plans, to volunteer in any way to correct the situation, to see into the future, to make the public aware that this is going on and let them know that the situation effects all of us, not just a few sport weenies on parade but multiple user groups in multiple sites. There are thousands of sites like this in the Jemez National forest and even more outside. Where you like now, someone else liked thousands of years ago, so it is part of the equation.

Some of the climbers decided to set up a meeting before the closure to begin this process of proactive activity. I will let the public know about it when I do.


AS

So did you all just give up on this one and take it in the rectum or what?

Someone, preferably from NMCrag should be contacting a sympathetic senator or congressperson to address this problem. Usually these kinds of things are the result of an agency employee fostering their personal politics or agendas through their official position. Elected officials are generally pretty responsive to their constituents and can often get these kinds of things reversed. Of course if the NM climbing community supports this action then I guess it's go find another crag time.....