Well said Ken.

Well said Ken...I couldn't agree more.

One of the things that gets pointed out, or thrown back in our face, by the stashpad crowd is that trad climber's have stashed gear too, so, therefore, they have a right to stash pads. Twenty years ago, I wasn't against stashed gear. I never did it, not because I was against it but that the need never came up. I was guiding in RMNP at that time and would be up on Long's and the Diamond 2-3 times a week. Each time I carried my gear (Oh, all right. I'd get the client psyched up and they'd proudly carry it for all the world to see.), then carried it out at the end of the day. Was it a pain? Did it hurt my legs? Did my quads bulk up? You bet, but I did it.

Stashing gear or crash pads in never an okay thing to do. Period. It's not morally, environmentally, aesthetically or even a legal thing to do. Get over it. Not that people occaisionally don't bend the rules, or that I haven't occaisionally bent the rules (Those shortcuts on the way down from Long's RULE!) but it's a matter of volume. If those short cuts started to wash out and erode, I'd quit in a second. Likewise, with so many people going up to Chaos and Evans on a regular basis the habit of stashing pads has become a big problem. If that many people were stashing gear and ropes at the base of the Diamond, that would be a problem, too. That doesn't mean that it's okay to stash if you're the only one stashing. It's not. Unfortunately, the only honorable and unselfish answer to this is to quit the habit. Sorry about that.

I would love to have someone hike my pack up and stash it on Broadway so I could climb the Diamond. There is no way I could do that myself any more. I might be able to get to B-way if I didn't have to carry gear...no way I could do it if I had anything more than a CamelBack. What that means is that I probably won't ever do the Diamond again. That bums me out seriously but that's the world we live in. The Diamond, Mt. Evans and Chaos, despite the crowds and social trails, are pristine places that deserve to remain so. There are too few areas left in the world that qualify and we need to jealously guard those as best we can.

If you want to highball over a 9-pad stack go to Bishop or Carter or the 420's. And by all means go to Chaos and Evans, just hike in with your posse and your 9 pads and be sure to hike them out at the end of the day.

BTW, I heard yesterday that a crew hiked in to Chaos last week and pre-emptively took out the stashed pads. Thanks for cleaning up but it's pretty cheeseball to keep those pads. The proper thing to do would be to set up a retrieval spot (At the Spot?) and let people claim their pads. Charge them $20 for your gas and effort then donate that to the Access Fund if you want to credit your Karma Bank.

Climb safe,
Mal

Hey Malcolm,

I would be happy to hike your gear up to the Diamond and meet you on top to take it down. I guess I am just an old softie.

Lee

This has Texas written all over it.

Great posts Ken and Malcolm. I don't know if more needs to be said.

I also believe that the right thing to do is have a place to pick up the pads that were hiked out last weekend. I understand why some may dissagree, but it is better to take the high road when possible.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of folks who still do not agree with Ken and Malcolm's wonderfully eloquent posts on the subject. I remain hopeful for the future of bouldering in the Park and at Evans, but sadly this is not even close to the end of stashed pads.

See you all "out there."

Watch out Lee. I may take you up on the offer. I'd have to work a bit on my "Dunlop" if I was tho have any prayer of climbing the damn thing.

Next summer?
Mal

Malcolm,

I would also be willing to help if possible. And I'm positive that you have other friends on the Front Range who would help. That's what friends do. Speak up if you want to make it happen.

Cheers,
Brad

Sounds like we got us a posse. WhoooHooooo!
Diamond 08...(Don't think I'll have time this year.)
Mal

I did a survey of my own and looked at peoples' profiles. It seems that many people on this site don't even boulder and if they do, they don't climb hard enough to send any of the pebbles in the Park outside of the "warmups", therefore it seems that most of you probably haven't even been to Chaos. Am I right? lets take a poll? Who has actually been there to climb? My only point in saying this is not to offend, but to ask how can you talk trash on the subject if you've never even been there to see for yourself.

I've been climbing up there all season and have not seen 1 single pad laying around, let alone any pads chewed up by marmots. I'm not saying whether it's right but the people that stash, hide them well and are respectful. the reason people stash is for safety - have you ever climbed alone? Have you seen the landings? it's not always possible to get your 9 person posse. if you have ever been to chaos, chances are you benefited from one of the stashed pads yourself and were happy (at the time) to have that extra pad!
I spoke with one of my "trad" climbing friends and she told me that a friend of hers (one of you who has posted here on this drama) called her last month to ask if she'd hike someones gear up to the diamond and "stash" it for them. How is that different? The marmot will find and chew on the gear, it doesn't know or care how long it's been there. I just don't understand the hypocracy.

here's some quotes for ya:

"I hate bouldering" John J Glime
"I cashed my rope & rack overnight" - John Hegyes
"I don't consider my self a boulderer" - James Beissel



just some thought I had....

if you've been up there all year then you should have seen the pad thawing out under "nothing but sunshine" that was hiked out by me. you would have also seen the one under tommys and automator, and the one that is sitting at eternia as we speak.

give me a freakin break, and don't be afraid to sign your name.

H-Dawg:
I have bouldered at Chaos for five years, but I have not gone there this year. I have never used a stashed pad, but I have seen them. I have also noticed more and more trash every year. While I do not boulder as hard as many who go there, I have climbed problems that are harder than the "warm-ups" and have terrible landings. It is nice to have a lot of pads for these problems, but stashing pads is not the answer. I also believe that you should not stash gear for a trip up the Diamond, and this practice should stop. Therefore, I am not hypocritical on this stance. For a discussion by the bouldering community, check out frontrangebouldering.com's message board.

H-Dawg,

I am guessing that I am the one you are referring to about calling a friend to see if she wanted to earn $150 to hike someone's gear into the Diamond. Even if I am not that person, I did call a female friend in Estes to see if she was interested so I will reply to your post.

First let me say that I probably know you and am sorry if my opinion has offended you. Ironically, I take the stance I do to preserve the privilege of bouldering in Chaos Canyon and to help ensure other climber privileges by not annoying the NPS by blatantly breaking the rules.


You say that you have been there all season and have not seen a single pad? What do you say to the multiple people here who claim to have seen so many?


You also asked why it is different to me to carry someone's gear to the Diamond than it is to stash pads in Chaos?

There are may reasons this is different to me but the most obvious answer is that it's not against the rules to stash gear below the Diamond for up to 24 hours which means there should be no access issues. The person who was soliciting the porter had a very specific time which made me believe that he would be climbing the next day.

Another reason is that I believe we should do our best to Leave no Trace in the wilderness of RMNP.


The bottom line for me though is access. Things can change FAST... just look at Arches NP.


If you want to talk about this more, send me an email. It may also be worth noting that I made multiple calls to friends in Estes (including the one mentioned above) asking them to spread the word that pads stashed in Chaos were not safe anymore and to get them soon if they had any up there.

hoping I haven't ruined a friendship,
Brad

It's ok that my truck is leaking a quart of oil a day into the local aquifer because I drive faster and better than all of YOU and I have a perfect driving record to boot. All of my neighbors have complained, but I told THEM I didn't see no leak! So there! signed, T-DAWG. DAWG(Dumb Ass White Guy)

I wasn't trying to offend anyone,But the point i was trying to make is that unless you've been up there and/or are a boulderer I don't understand how you can rant and rave when you haven't seen the situation for yourself. How would you feel if we boulders took it upon ourselves to get the Access Fund to clean up all the fixed gear out there.... including fixed ropes, draws on your projects, webbing at the belay stations, etc.

And yes, Brad, you indeed do know the friend I am talking about, and she told me that you have NOT been up there this year. so the things that you say must be based on what others are saying. I don't take it personally and I hope you don't either, but a stash is a stash. if it's LNT, then LNT all the way baby. It shouldn't be acceptable for some and not for all. I agree, access is the issue, and i will do my part to keep access open. i just wanted to give my 2 cents b/c it pisses me off that people are talking trash when they don't boulder and/or haven't been up there (i haven't been to Evans so I can't say anything about that situation).


BTW(SETH), I do agree that if pads are left under boulder problems they should be removed especially if they're all torn up.

Are people still trying to put their $.02 on this issue w/o reading what has already been said?

Hey Dawg, stashing gear for longer than 24 hours is illegal. I don't care if you are a cave diver, boulder, redneck who's quad broke down, or a baby momma hiding a carriage. It's all bad.

Booty the gear that got left on the route if it bothers you so much. Whatever, the person who left that gear knew that they were risking it being aquisitioned by someone else when they left it. C'est la vie brotha. Gear left behind on trad routes is typically left b/c the climber had no choice in the matter (had to bail or just couldn't make it). When it is purposely left...well dude...fair game, unlike this pad rescue that is being organized in which responsible climbers of all disciplines (Caver's included) are making a conscious effort to get the neglected pads back to their beloved owners (provided they are willing to pay the rangers the fine associated with abandoning personal property in a national forest). Sucks dude, but when you break the rules sometimes you gotta pay the piper.

Hey guess what dude, I haven't been up there to see the carnage either. from the pictures I have seen and the descriptions I have heard, it sounds like there are a few things that need to be taken care of. I will argue all points relevant to LNT all day b/c all my mountaineering career LNT has been a practice I abide, respect and condoned long before I climbed as a wee boy scout trudging through the Presidential Range of NH. If you don't like it start buildering, don't be surprised when a bum pisses on your stashie, and don't cry when you get slapped with a $200 littering ticket from the boys in blue.

No argument can reverse the fact that leaving something behind is wrong no matter what you do. The only exception is that sometimes climbers need to or they will die vs sometimes a climber chooses to b/c they are lazy. Draw your own conclusions, just don't try to base a coersion on a crock of malarchy.

Pads have disapeared at an alarming rate, the clean up is taking place and well underway. Let's do something more productive with the adopt a crag day. The word got out and people have stepped up. Everyone knows it is a problem and the issue is self policing itself. Let's find a better adopt a crag objective and stop this thread so we can use our energy somewhere else.

How about a diamond clean up. I was up there last week, so much tat and there are fixed ropes and gear all the way up the dunn west bay. How about a descent gully clean up of all the major formations in the park. There is tat all over the petit gully between the sabre and the petit from people that can't find the bolted descent. There is the same on Notchtop from people that can't find those descent bolts as well. Let's all split up and climb major formations in the park and see how much tat and dropped gear can be retrieved. Send a team into fields chimney and you will hit the booty jackpot. Clean up all the bivy sites as well. I find old cans and food trash everytime I am up there.

I know this would be a very risky clean up and is probably inappropriate from a liability stand point, but we would come out with more tat and trash than we will pads at this point.

My 2 cents.