this is indeed a sad situation. i've never bouldered in this area but have hiked around it and it doesn't take much to be deeply inspired and moved by such suroundings. it is indeed one of those special places on this earth. many people around this country drive out here to check out the biznass but those of us who live along the front range and play in such a grand place are truly blessed.

we have close accesse to exceptional bouldering, cragging, alpine/mountaineering and snow. yes we are blessed souls. i, like many others who play out here have been inspired, motivated,challenged and flat out beatn' up but we continue such endevours because when we go out there it just feels right (maybe because we are conecting with our primitive past), it feels good, and well, it makes us feel alive. the mountains have given us alot and the least we can do is repay the favor by taking care of them.

d.c.

Hey, I need some help, someone pull my finger..

I have been climbing in RMNP for 14 years, I have walked through Chaos and emerald many times and moons ago before worthless boulderers could get on these forums and spray about there worthless 10 feet of climbing that they jerked off on for 2 years, so they could tell everyone they sent there sick V whatever and here is my sick photo of myself being rad to prove it. I have watched the invasion of the pad people grow like a pine beetle epidemic. Mutating at expponantially unpredictable numbers.

I agree with P Broskavic, Why would you go up there to wrestle 10 feet of a pebble with Hallets soaring above you? I will never forget the first pad session I witnessed up there in the late 90's early Y2k or so. I saw pad people in a place I did not understand on boulders I wrestled years ago as a quick pit stop while descending from Hallets. I stopped to talk to them in disbelief as to there efforts to come up here to boulder. They talked to me like I was from another planet after I stated that I too was a climber.

What really took me by storm was that they had names for all these 10 foot pebbles and actually were spewing out problem names left and right and ratings like V0 this and that. I asked in disbelief? This boulder has a name? I spent the next 5 minutes explaining to them that the big rock up there was Hallets, and it deserves a name along with the routes on it. I don't think they understood that people climbed up there. Anyway, I could tell there was a new revolution in town, It has only gotten worse.

I discovered a pristine untouched area of boulders while looking for new trad lines, they were convienent and clean nice flat landing problems. We had a session or two en route to some nice cragging. It was not long before the wrong person was shown, and about 2 weeks later stashed there were, huge sticks and bar b cue brushes taped to them, along with pads, and get this, An ALLUMINUM FRICKING LADDER!!!!!! Since when is a ladder a piece of climbing equipment?

It is getting bad and I agree, Take the pads out, sell them for profit and tell the PHAGGY PAD PEOPLE TO LEARN ABOUT THERE ENVIRONMENT AND TO LEARN A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE TRADITION OF THERE SPORT AND WERE IT CAME FROM. These are the mountains, lets keep them that way.

One more rant, I do agree that stashed diamond gear is no better for arguments sake, but I do challenge you to go up to Mills or Chasm lake and see how many racks you can find. Then go up to Chaos and see how many pads you can find, although not arguablly any better, you will not find a rack that has been cached unless you are shown by the culprit.

I was up there this weekend. We weren't even trying to find pads and they were everywhere. We found nearly a dozen in 10 min. Most not even hidden just sitting at the base of the problems they were working on. On top of that we found three that had been there for at least a year buried in snow in there stash spot! I say take out as many as we can to clean up the park! If these guys aren't tough enough to climb and pack out their stuff, their too weak to be up there climbing!

Haag

Haag,

Are you kidding? Nearly a dozen in 10 minutes? Three that were still lodged in the snow from last year?

If that's true then I emphatically support people taking them.

WTF!

looks like I am going shopping for a bouldering pad this weekend.

I went with Haag, and another friend back up to Chaos again this weekend. He's telling it exactly like it is. We arrived fairly early in the day and bouldered our way up the canyon. On our hike back out of Chaos is when we spotted all the pads. We did find two or three that were still frozen in ice/snow from last winter. I guess those are the fixed pads, Mark. We left those as I think they will be able to be retrieved in two more weeks, or at least I hope so. We also found two more stashed in the upper canyon, one was a Mad Rock pad that had been chewed on all four corners, not worn from being used, but chewed. There was another pad stashed with the Mad Rock one. It was in very bad shape. One whole side of it was ripped open and its plastic was blowing in the wind. We picked these up and started to hike them out.
So, now the three of us are carrying a total of seven pads. The three that each of us owned, plus the two really beat up ones, and two more we found that are in decent shape (more on those later). It was with these in tow that we ran into the angry guy. He wanted to know what we were doing with the pads. We told him. I should also mention that he and the guy he was with were not carrying any pads at all. He accused us of stealing, he said that those were for people's projects. He wanted the two beat up ones back. After he promised to hike them out we gave them to him. I really hope he did.
So, I now have a crash pad that I don't really want. If you can describe it to me, I'll return it too you. I'd love to get it off my hands, it smells really bad.
Chris

First off, thanks to Chris for bringing this to the community's attention.

I just stumbled across this thread, having been away from Mountain Project for a few weeks. On one hand it is a surprise to me; on the other hand I'm not surprised at all.

I'm not a boulderer at all; I think the first time I realized Chaos Canyon was prime bouldering ground was several years back when the park required bus transit through the construction zone. Suddenly my bus was filled with bouldering pads attached to boulderers. I'd never noticed a boulderer in the park before that.

There are a lot of folks that know the park much better than I, but I've probably spent about 10-15 days/yr in the park for the past 7 or 8 years. So, the place is dear to my heart and one of the reasons I'd be challenged to ever leave the Front Range.

I understand the park regulations about stashed gear, and the 24 hour limitation on fixed/stashed gear. I also understand the need to occasionally bend the rules. However, if you're going to bend the rules, then IMO you've gotta stick to the following:
- No one had better find it/it can't be visibly seen
- It'd better not be an item that is capable of easily being picked apart by pikas, marmots, or birds
- It'd better not be cached there more than a week or two unused, unless you're on a multi-week climb that requires it

If I said anything else, I'd be a hypocrite. It's standard practice to cache food and gear on big mountains. However, there is a big difference between doing it right, and doing it wrong. You can tell when someone does it wrong, because there are food wrappers and other crap swirling around the areas for weeks.

I've never cached gear in RMNP, but at a minimum would consider it in the future if I went to aid a route on the diamond. Anything else is insanity for the weekend warrior, if you don't hire horses. However, you can bet I would cache it 'professionally' one weekend, work the route the following weekend, then get my crap out of there when I was done.

So, my point of all this is that I can see both sides; however, I crash pads don't fit the bill for caching. They're huge. I can't envision a good way to hide them from view and protect them from the animals. From the sounds of it, I'd guess they're just sitting under boulders in relatively plain sight to those hiking around the boulders. Furthermore, it's not a physical feat to hike to that canyon with a bouldering pad, so the whole caching pads is pretty weak sauce.

It does sounds like there are other issues, such as erosion -- but perhaps those aren't as easy to correct in a short period of time.

Does anyone have any pictures to share? If you do head in, please take and post some -- I think we'd all be interested to see if the written descriptions match the visual. I'm sure they do.

To combat the issue of oxygen bottles on Everest, sponsors offered to pay for the return of thousands of empty oxygen bottles from the death zone. Magically, the place is much cleaner these days.

I am curious what the response would be if I offered a reward for every 'abandoned gear' boulder pad removed from Chaos Canyon, provided they were either trashed/recycled or usable pads sold to a gear reseller, with the proceeds (and possibly the cash reward) donated to one of the following (this would be a must):
- RMNP
- American Alpine Club
- Access Fund

I probably couldn't offer more than $10 or so a piece, but it would provide some minor incentive. Perhaps others would donate, too.

I'm sure this suggestion will prove controversial, but again, RMNP is a place dear to my heart and I don't see a cleanup (preferably supported by RMNP or the AAC or the Access Fund) as unreasonable if the conditions are as stated. Similar 'climber cleanups' are done in other national parks for old fixed line left on major routes (yes, there is a ton of old goldline on some routes).

Lastly, has anyone discussed this issue at length with the Access Fund, recently or in history? What is their stance?

How about RMNP climbing rangers?

I don't know for sure if anyone has talked to the Access Fund about stashing pads in wilderness areas. The rangers DO know of the practice, and it does not help access. From what I have heard through the grape vine (I don't remember the sources), stashing of pads, social trails, and trash at Chaos has been discussed in Ranger meetings. I don't know what has been decided, but it is clear that the impact at Chaos is not being overlooked and boulderers need to be careful.

I am very disappointed with the story from Haag and Chris. I have not been to Chaos this year, but I have seen many pads stashed in previous years. However, I have never seen a trashed pad or one still in the snow. I hate to hear stories like this.

If any boulderers read this, remember that some rangers also read these web boards. They know what is going on and are probably hoping that we police ourselves. Apparently this is starting to happen. If you want your pad, go up and get it. And start hiking it out every time.

EDIT:Corrected some typos.

It sounds like most people recognize that the photos below (taken at a Colorado alpine bouldering area) represent a serious problem to the climbing community as a whole.

Another trashed pad found in the alpine environment Submitted By: Cameron Cross on Jul 31, 2007

The result of a crashpad left in the alpine environment. Submitted By: Cameron Cross on Jul 31, 2007

Hey Pad-Bot leave the mattress at home LEARN TO SPOT.

How hard could it be John Gill did it in the 50s...

Cameron-
Thanks for posting the photos.
That is exactly what everyone taking the issue as a joke needs to see. If that does not help bring everyone together to keep it clean and excersise LNT ethics then I don't know what will. I do know that I will be packing stashies out everytime I come across one to do what I can to help keep these areas open. In an effort to maintain peace in the communinity I will gladly ship the stashed pad back to the owner. If found a second time I will have to turn it into a cozy bed for my dog :)

Cheers!

In the warriors way there is a section on not whining, and acting. So, what are some alternatives? Not accusing anyone of whining.

Would anyone be up for a some cleanup missions? Or would it be acceptable to do some landing zone cleanup? Manicured landing zones are a form of eyesore to some people, but I would imagine that those same folks would rather see that than pads in various states of disrepair.

since it seems that the issue here, pad stashing, has a fairly simple solution with nearly unanimous agreement, it seems strangely ignorant that a few comments have been phrased to take an off-topic stab at the bouldering community. wondering why folks boulder is the analog to hikers wondering why trad climbers do not just take the trail to the top of longs.

it is true that there is an element of juvenile aloofness and ignorance as to environmental impact in the bouldering community, and it is this that needs to be addressed as a climbing community on the whole.

like the alpine gear stashes discussed, pad stashing was a practice that pre-dates the current wave of boulderers in rmnp. in fact, it was the estes locals that showed many of us little tricks to climb safer and with greater convenience in the park such as stashing pads, water, and using water filters to reduce fatigue that the rigors of constant sessioning in the park would have on your body. as harder and harder lines were established over increasingly worse landings, pad stashing in particular was embraced by each successive wave of boulderers, new to the alpine zone. now, pad stashing has become commonplace. however, on those first seasons, there were only a few stashed pads that would be treated with respect, hidden carefully, and relied upon for the relatively few folks climbing in chaos.

obviously, the scene has changed. whereas you would be hard-pressed to get a spot if you climbed in the park alone, now there are many climbers in the talus each day...often hanging out at the latest, greatest testpiece. yes, there is now a 'scene' and with the evolution of that scene, the need for stashing pads has gone entirely since there are so many climbers on hand to lend their pad or a spot for a few minutes to protect from the explosive falls that occur when trying moves at or beyond your limit.

the disconnect hereis that while the increase in traffic should have decreased the stashing practices, it has instead gotten out of hand as an accepted and therefore copied method.

if we are to be viewed separately, much of the bouldering community is aware of this problem and steps are being taken to counteract it now. i have seen the beginnings of a positive response from most stashers, including the kids who were often spotted carrying nothing into upper.

don't get me wrong, however, i am not trying appoint myself as a holier-than-thou bouldering cop, nor am i trying to perpetuate the bouldering versus rope climber debate of pointless retardation. rather, i'm just explaining that many of us ARE taking additional strides to help this problem. it's a role that i would encourage everyone to take in the places they, themselves frequently haunt, whether at one of sport climbing's hundreds of trampled cliff bases or at alpine stash zones.

Here is the link to the frontrangebouldering.com posts. I'll show one full post and reply here, as it has an interesting picture. Further below are some additional interesting comments, including a ranger pad count being ~25 last year.

Main Thread:
http://www.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?action=read&id=118>>>>>

Secondary Thread with Picture in Reply:
http://www.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?action=read&id=118>>>>>

http://www.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?action=read&id=118>>>>>

QUOTING FRONTRANGEBOULDERING.COM :

(sigh) I hate repeating myself, but for the sake of ethics here goes.
Climbers have generally been reactive not proactive about standing up AGAINST the actions of a few irresponsible climbers. That being said, this problem will end. Much like the chipping, bolting, fixed gear wars, climbers with backcountry ethics will not let the laziness of a few ruin a bouldering area for the rest of the community.

I, nor the majority of boulders I know, will sit idly by while this takes place.

leave no trace isnt just for backpackin.

Like I said on FRB "i see'em i'm jerkin'em, period."

oh, and for the record, the post that is cut and pasted above with the shitty pad is my post from FRB. Thanks again Scott for the info on the parks standing on leaving gear behind.

Hello everyone,
First of all, I want to say that I'm very glad that this issue has gained more awareness. It has angered me for years, and it seems like everyone is banning together finally.

With the help of the Access Fund and several other people in the community, we have organized two stashed pad removal days. The Mt. Evans clean up will be on 8/25 and we will meet at the Echo Lake parking lot at 10:30 am. The Park clean up will be on 9/8 and we will meet at the Bear Lake parking lot at 10:30 am. Both events are being registered as Adopt A Crag events. There will be more logistics to work out since there are several areas at each place that have stashed pads. I'll have more info later.

I want to thank everyone that has been so supportive of this effort. Hopefully we can get these areas cleaned up, and by doing so, encourage others to treat these areas with respect and quit stashing pads altogether.
Thanks,
Amy Carden

For the boulderer bashers:
Pull your heads out of your ass, there are bad apples in every bunch no matter what their chosen form of expression may be.

For the pad stashers:
Pull your head out of your ass, that thing weighs less than my rope, don't be a douche, you're gonna fuck up a good thing for everyone. Slash and burn is a bad mentality to live by, fucking evolve!!!

For the pad fetchers:
Thanks, I'll buy you a beer if I meet you.

Leaving your shit in the woods is against the law! You are littering, you are shitting in mother nature's mouth and likewise shitting in the climbing community's mouth and everyone who has worked hard over the years to gain access to these places. In effect you are moving everything we love backwards. Knock it off! This goes for anyone who likes to enjoy the outdoors, it's not a dumpster, it's a preserve! It's a delicate ecosystem, some might argue that it is a church.

Amy, that's awesome! Thanks to all who organized this and brought light to this situation, and to those who have and will be contributing their time.

You may want to post that on the event calendar by clicking 'suggest an event' on the mountain project home page.

Amy, thanks for the info on the clean-up dates. Hopefully we won't have to many pads still up there by then as word seems to be getting out that this is an unacceptable practice. See you all at the clean-up.
Chris

Please email me the details and I'll post it up in the events section. I've put a short note in the news about it a few minutes ago.