By Ken Cangi
From Boulder, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| vegastradguy wrote: yup, because i asked for an example, and you won't give me one. i dont understand your logic- help me out. i'm not asking you for an example for marc (my comment about his opinion was simply an observation, not part of my question)- i'm literally asking you for an example of when it is okay to glue a hold back onto a boulder problem. seriously. i don't understand where this would ever be kosher....
Look at the post above yours. I think Russ just gave you a perfect example. |  |
By Dan Levison
From Boulder
Mar 4, 2008
| Done tastefully, using glue to reinforce loose holds or suspect flakes; or to occasionally glue back on a key hold that snapped off is a viable part of climbing. Like anything else, it can get abused though e.g., too much glue, gluing on different holds, using glue to enhance holds, etc... | |
By Bob D'Antonio
From Superior, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| vegastradguy wrote: - i'm literally asking you for an example of when it is okay to glue a hold back onto a boulder problem. seriously. i don't understand where this would ever be kosher....
You are cut from the same mold as Marc when it comes to this subject. You just stated it in the last sentence above. You can't understand why it would be ever kosher...so why should I try to explain something you are not capable of understanding??
If you came to this discussion with a open mind then there is a chance that you just might understand (you don't have to agree or do) why in some isolated cases that gluing a hold BACK-ON to a route is ok. | |
By John J. Glime
From Salt Lake City, UT
Mar 4, 2008
| vegastradguy wrote: i don't understand where this would ever be kosher....
Well, everyone who has climbed a first ascent is the route developer, would you agree? You make choices about what vegetation may or may not be removed, about what loose rock to trundle, what loose rock to break off, what to leave. Where to place pro, if you should modify that placement. Where to place a bolt, bla, bla, bla... you are developing a route for others to follow.
I personally can't envision myself gluing a hold back on, but I don't see that much of a difference in the gray area of what it means to be a route developer. You start changing and modifying the route. "Fixing up the route" by gluing seems to be in the same category. Why is the other stuff "kosher" but not reinforcing or re-fixing a hold or two with glue?
I know why I wouldn't do it, but I can see why some route developers would. | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Bob D'Antonio wrote: it not a new potato size hold...can you understand that...it was there for a thousand ascents or more.
I understand that. The scenario that I laid out demonstrates that I understand that. I'm sorry if you're not aware of my understanding.
Bob D'Antonio wrote: You are weak and getting weaker. Meet us climbing tomorrow so we can discuss this in detail. Animal World. I need a young hot shot like yourself to drag me up a new route.
Why would you want to climb with a weak, mediocre climber? I would actually like to get out climbing with you sometime, as I'm sure that I could learn a thing or two from you. I mean with 100% sincerity. I'm also sure that you don't want to climb with me.
Patrick Wild wrote: Bob was there first. You and your buddy have no previous knowledge of the route before it was broken.
So that in itself gives him the right? I respect your opinion but disagree. Thank you for actually stating an opinion instead of attacking my climbing ability (or lack thereof).
Patrick Wild wrote: So, when you show up it's no longer in its "original state" but some could argue still "natural". The FAist wants to return the climb to its "original state" and glues the hold back on, now it's no longer natural but back to its original...
I think you've got a valid point here. But I'm not sure if that's actually the case here. Does anyone know if it was the the FAionist that replaced the hold-in-question?
Patrick Wild wrote: but you seem to be insinuating that Bob did glue the hold back on.
I never insinuated that. Nor did I necessarily believe that. Not once did I accuse anyone (including Bob) of replacing the hold, nor did I ask who replaced the hold.
Bob D wrote: Marc stated NEVER so any reasonable example (other opinions) will never be good enough.
I said it before and I'll say it again: I've been proven wrong before and provided a mea culpa on a several occasions. We all know that if you had one reasonable example it would be enough to shut me up for good. The fact that you haven't come up with one speaks volumes.
Joey Wolfe wrote: The pin scar argument is weak at best though. A pin scar to me seems parralle to a hold breaking off, gluing a hold back on would be like filling in pin scars with epoxy or such i.e stacking up more shit.
I'm very much in line with this opinion.
Dave Holliday wrote: ...routes have historic value. Some routes or boulder problems might be well-known and famous enough to warrant being preserved. I think we've all been on routes where a particular hold "defines" it: maybe there's a particular "thank goddess" hold, or a key sidepull, or fingerlock, without which the route could no longer be climbed. Maybe there's a particularly interesting move to a hold (or off a hold) that if missing would make the route less than interesting. This would clearly be an argument about preserving a route's aesthetics.
Russ Walling wrote: I'm pretty sure the "Lightning Bolt Hold" on Midnight Lightning is glue reinforced. Perhaps the most famous hold on the most famous boulder problem, and it certainly defines the problem.
It looks to me like Dave and Russ gave "reasonable examples." I can now admit that I was wrong in using the word "never." Don't you wish you'd been the one that provided the impetus for that statement, Bob? All you had to do was give me one reasonable example, but you couldn't come up with one; you chose to attack my character and climbing ability instead. I think that's sad.
SAL wrote: the pebble looks retarded up there. as if someone just glued it up there. Oh wait...
LOL
Bob D'Antonio wrote: If you came to this discussion with a open mind then there is a chance that you just might understand (you don't have to agree or do) why in some isolated cases that gluing a hold BACK-ON to a route is ok.
I don't know vegastradguy, but it's quite obvious to me that he came in here with an open mind and wanted your honest opinion regarding glued-on holds. You just compared him to me; that's not fair to him. :)
--Marc
P.S. This will probably be my last post on this particular thread. I can't imagine there's anything left for me to say; I've been pretty long-winded. Thanks everyone that participated in a fruitful conversation and didn't attack my character or climbing ability. I'm not quite a mediocre climber, but I don't claim elite status either; I'm really just a climber with a strong opinion when it comes to gluing on holds. I never claimed to be anything more. | |
By Ken Cangi
From Boulder, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: Don't you wish you'd been the one that provided the impetus for that statement, Bob? All you had to do was give me one reasonable example, but you couldn't come up with one
I can't speak for Bob, but I thought Russ's and Dave's examples were implicit in our original argument. I just assumed that you would have considered those things. Again, not speaking for Bob, but I actually thought that it would have been patronizing to state what I believed to be obvious examples.
I sometime forget how young some of you guys are and that you weren't around for some of this stuff. | |
By vegastradguy
From Henderson, NV
Mar 4, 2008
| Bob D'Antonio wrote: You are cut from the same mold as Marc when it comes to this subject. You just stated it in the last sentence above. You can't understand why it would be ever kosher...so why should I try to explain something you are not capable of understanding?? If you came to this discussion with a open mind then there is a chance that you just might understand (you don't have to agree or do) why in some isolated cases that gluing a hold BACK-ON to a route is ok.
Bob, i gotta admit, i'm really surprised by how unwilling you are to participate in this conversation. i stated in my last sentence that i didnt understand- as in, i dont understand, please enlighten me. (forgive me for the use of the word- 'can't'- i should have used 'don't'.)
i've done my share of FA's here in Red Rock- nowhere near what your count is, i'm sure, but i definitely understand the gray area we're talking about here, but, in this particular case, it seems off kilter.
btw- Russ's example may be the closest thing i personally would find acceptable- but at the same time, if it were me, i'd even let Midnight Lightning pass on as a problem if the key hold were to break. such is the nature of life- not all climbs are meant to be around for eternity. | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Ken Cangi wrote: I can't speak for Bob, but I thought Russ's and Dave's examples were implicit in our original argument. I just assumed that you would have considered those things.
C'mon Ken. I was virtually begging for an example the entire time. I think you are being patronizing with this comment. Had you provided me with an example earlier, you would have simply been filling my request, not being patronizing.
Ken Cangi wrote: I sometime forget how young some of you guys are and that you weren't around for some of this stuff.
This is a good point. I'm only 29 years old. Compared to the amount of time that the sport of mountaineering has been around, 29 years is nothing. Even after 16 years of climbing, I'm still obviously learning. I think this site is a great place for me to learn things from climbers that have been around a lot longer than I have. That, and the ability to argue my points is great too :).
Thanks for the discussion, Ken. I really enjoyed it and did learn some things.
--Marc
P.S. Dang-it, I posted again. When will I learn..? | |
By Ken Cangi
From Boulder, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: C'mon Ken. I was virtually begging for an example the entire time. I think you are being patronizing with this comment. Had you provided me with an example earlier, you would have simply been filling my request, not being patronizing. This is a good point. I'm only 29 years old. Compared to the amount of time that the sport of mountaineering has been around, 29 years is nothing. Even after 16 years of climbing, I'm still obviously learning. I think this site is a great place for me to learn things from climbers that have been around a lot longer than I have. That, and the ability to argue my points is great too :). Thanks for the discussion, Ken. I really enjoyed it and did learn some things. --Marc P.S. Dang-it, I posted again. When will I learn..?
You agreed with the second half of my post, which was integral to the first, so how was I patronizing? In other words, I thought those examples where implicit because of having been around for those events and not taking the time to realize that some younger climbers wouldn't have been. It was the assumption that everyone already knew those things that made me feel that stating what seemed obvious to me would be patronizing.
That's what I get for assuming. | |
By mattb19
From Albuquerque, NM
Mar 4, 2008
| Marc, A few people have stated what I am about to say so I will give the definition. "Never" is a strong word. Here is the definition:
never (nĕv'ər)
adv.
Not ever; on no occasion; at no time: He had never been there before. You never can be sure.
Not at all; in no way; absolutely not
This argument can go lots of ways and I think that when arguing it is always a good idea to leave the door open for other ideas. If not why engage. I was surprised to see it go as long as it has. Climbing is a gray world and it is best to see it that way or you will spend a lot of time going in circles. | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| mattb19 wrote: Marc, A few people have stated what I am about to say so I will give the definition. "Never" is a strong word. Here is the definition: never (nĕv'ər) adv. Not ever; on no occasion; at no time: He had never been there before. You never can be sure. Not at all; in no way; absolutely not This argument can go lots of ways and I think that when arguing it is always a good idea to leave the door open for other ideas. If not why engage. I was surprised to see it go as long as it has. Climbing is a gray world and it is best to see it that way or you will spend a lot of time going in circles.
I have already admitted that I should not have used the word "never." The entire time I was inviting people to give me a reason to rescind my original statement. Some people chose to attack me and my climbing ethics (i.e. climbing the PO Wall) instead of giving me an example as to why I shouldn't have made my original statement.
I understand what the word "never" means.
--Marc | |
By Bob D'Antonio
From Superior, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: it before and I'll say it again: I've been proven wrong before and provided a mea culpa on a several occasions. We all know that if you had one reasonable example it would be enough to shut me up for good. The fact that you haven't come up with one speaks volumes. I'm very much in line with this opinion. It looks to me like Dave and Russ gave "reasonable examples." I can now admit Thanks everyone that participated in a fruitful conversation and didn't attack my character or climbing ability. I'm not quite a mediocre climber, but I don't claim elite status either; I'm really just a climber with a strong opinion when it comes to gluing on holds. I never claimed to be anything more.
Marc...if you look back at your first few posts you will realize you set the tone for what followed. You started the name calling and also used strong words to get you point across leaving little room for a educated discussion.
I been around climbing for way to long to use words like never and seen way to many changes to be so narrow minded when it comes to change in this sport.
A hold that broke and then was glued back on really doesn't bother or offend when me looking at the big picture.
I have other really important issues to worry about than a glued on hold. If it is really that big an issue with you then I say go for it and good luck on your journey.
I could have given you a thousand different scenarios and it still wouldn't have changed your mind...your opening posts said it all.
| |
By Bob D'Antonio
From Superior, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: It's not just lame; it's uber-lame!! :) There is no good explanation. Applying glue to rock is never needed. I'd be interested to hear someone give it a go though. --Marc
See what I mean??? | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Ken--
Marc Horan wrote: Applying glue to rock is never needed. I'd be interested to hear someone give it a go though.
Marc wrote: That's my opinion. Disagree if you like.
Marc wrote: I would love to hear why holds need to be glued onto otherwise natural problems or routes.
Marc wrote: Now let's here why it's ever necessary to glue a hold onto an otherwise natural piece of rock. Inquiring minds are dying to know!
Marc wrote: Let me know when you find an acceptable piece of climbing equipment that's reasonable to compare to epoxy.
Marc wrote: What that has to do with gluing holds on a boulder problem I don't know. Maybe you can enlighten me.
Marc wrote: However, in this particular case I believe there is never a justifiable reason to glue a hold onto an otherwise natural piece of rock. I invite anyone to give me a reasonable example as to when it is justifiable.
Marc wrote: Are you really OK with glued-on holds and manufactured problems/routes?
Marc wrote: When is is justifiable to glue a hold onto an otherwise natural piece of rock? Any reasonable example will suffice.
Marc wrote: I still have yet for someone to give me an example as to when it's justifiable to glue a smaller piece of rock onto a larger piece of rock. I just want one reasonable example!
Marc wrote: Why don't you try, Ken (or anyone else for that matter) [to give me an example as to when it's justifiable to glue a hold on]?
Marc wrote: Because I've been proven wrong before. Ken, you and I have been involved in some of the same threads here on MP.com. Therefore, I have to assume that you've seen me proven wrong before. If someone comes up with a reasonable example of when it might be justifiable to glue a hold onto an otherwise natural rock, I would be happy to hear it.
Marc wrote: Got an example yet, Bob?
Like I said, Ken, practically begging!
--Marc | |
By Bob D'Antonio
From Superior, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: Ken-- Like I said, Ken, practically begging! --Marc
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Speaking of horses...stop beating this one. | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Bob D'Antonio wrote: See what I mean???
Marc Horan wrote: I'd be interested to hear someone give it a go though.
See what I mean?
Bob wrote: You started the name calling...
Yes, I started the name-calling after you questioned my intelligence with "Can you read?" You insulted me first. Don't take the high ground here; you don't deserve it.
Bob wrote: I been around climbing for way to long to use words like never and seen way to many changes to be so narrow minded when it comes to change in this sport.
Maybe you should have said that first instead of insulting my intelligence. Maybe you should have given me a reason to not use the word "never." I was asking for one the entire time (see above post).
Bob wrote: I have other really important issues to worry about than a glued on hold.
I can tell. That must be why you posted something like 20 or 30 times over a period of two days. It's obviously not that important to you.
Bob wrote: I could have given you a thousand different scenarios and it still wouldn't have changed your mind...
But yet you chose not to? That doesn't make any sense. I call bullshit.
--Marc | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Bob D'Antonio wrote: Speaking of horses...stop beating this one.
You're giving me way too much material to work with.
--Marc | |
By Bob D'Antonio
From Superior, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: See what I mean? Yes, I started the name-calling after you questioned my intelligence with "Can you read?" You insulted me first. Don't take the high ground here; you don't deserve it. Maybe you should have said that first instead of insulting my intelligence. Maybe you should have given me a reason to not use the word "never." I was asking for one the entire time (see above post). I can tell. That must be why you posted something like 20 or 30 times over a period of two days. It's obviously not that important to you. But yet you chose not to? That doesn't make any sense. I call bullshit. --Marc
I'm also not the one who started two other thread to GET validation for my thinking.
I baited you and you took it...hook, line and sinker. Go back to hanging off pin scars and think that you are taking some moral high ground. | |
By Ken Cangi
From Boulder, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: Ken-- Like I said, Ken, practically begging! --Marc
Marc,
I got that part. I am trying to explain to you why "I" would have considered it patronizing to state some of those examples earlier.
Now we are beating a dead horse. | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Bob D'Antonio wrote: I'm also not the one who started two other thread to GET validation for my thinking.
I started two other threads to "GET" other climbers' opinions. The way in which I stated the questions demonstrates that; they were leading none whatsoever.
Are you really a grown man, Bob? I'm truly having a hard time believing that right now.
--Marc | |
By George Best
From Longmont
Mar 4, 2008
| How/why are man made things not natural? | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Ken Cangi wrote: Now we are beating a dead horse.
Thanks for saying "we."
I'm ready to drop it also.
--Marc | |
By Bob D'Antonio
From Superior, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: Thanks for saying "we." I'm ready to drop it also. --Marc
No your not cause you can't. You said that two pages ago and you keep coming back.
You are getting troll and can't help yourself. | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Bob D'Antonio wrote: No your not cause you can't. You said that two pages ago and you keep coming back. You are getting troll and can't help yourself.
I was talking about my discussion with Ken. I'm happy to shred your ridiculous shit all day long. You give me so much material to work with. Like I said, I'm having a hard time believing you are a grown man with the way in which you argue. I've seen nine-year-olds pose better arguments than you.
--Marc | |
By Bob D'Antonio
From Superior, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: I was talking about my discussion with Ken. I'm happy to shred your ridiculous shit all day long. You give me so much material to work with. Like I said, I'm having a hard time believing you are a grown man with the way in which you argue. I've seen nine-year-olds pose better arguments than you. --Marc
Weak!
You should start another thread. | |
|
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