By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 3, 2008
| Bob D'Antonio wrote: ...just please explain to me how a pin scar is "more natural" than glue - in detail.
I don't know how to go into detail regarding your request, but I can say this:
Pitons (and the scars that arise from them) are forms of protection; a glued-on hold is not. Pitons have been accepted forms of climbing equipment since the early days (although they are falling out of favor for more high-tech, less intrusive gear); glue has never been an accepted form of climbing equipment in the climbing world (at least to my knowledge).
Are you really OK with glued-on holds and manufactured problems/routes?
--Marc |  |
By John J. Glime
From Salt Lake City, UT
Mar 3, 2008
| If I may...
I think the consensus is really that bolts, drills, pin scars, pro, glue all fall into that gray area Ken mentioned. Once you are in the gray area, passing judgement on one versus the other isn't very easy... hence the gray area. | |
By Bob D'Antonio
From Superior, CO
Mar 3, 2008
| Mark...answer the question? Doesn't matter if they are accepted or not!
Pins scar are not "more natural"...pure and simple. | |
By Bob D'Antonio
From Superior, CO
Mar 3, 2008
| John J. Glime wrote: If I may... I think the consensus is really that bolts, drills, pin scars, pro, glue all fall into that gray area Ken mentioned. Once you are in the gray area, passing judgement on one versus the other isn't very easy... hence the gray area.
Thank you John for being (along with Ken, Richard and me) the voice of reason.
LOL | |
By Bob D'Antonio
From Superior, CO
Mar 3, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: glue has never been an accepted form of climbing equipment in the climbing world (at least to my knowledge). Are you really OK with glued-on holds and manufactured problems/routes? --Marc
Glue-in bolts are a accepted form of protection...where have you been?? | |
By patrick wild
Mar 3, 2008
| I'm afraid this gluey grip will hold water now and be more susceptible to freeze/thaw...
I'll drill a drain hole in it for ya'll. | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 3, 2008
| Bob D'Antonio wrote: Glue-in bolts are a accepted form of protection...where have you been??
I agree. My comments are in regards to glued-on holds.
Bob, I've answered all of your questions to the best of my ability; now let me ask a question. It's one that I asked a while ago, and you have conveniently been passing it up for some time now.
When is is justifiable to glue a hold onto an otherwise natural piece of rock? Any reasonable example will suffice.
--Marc | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 3, 2008
| John J. Glime wrote: If I may... I think the consensus is really that bolts, drills, pin scars, pro, glue all fall into that gray area Ken mentioned. Once you are in the gray area, passing judgement on one versus the other isn't very easy... hence the gray area.
Pins, cams, stoppers, and bolts are used for protection. In this case we're talking about someone using glue or epoxy to secure a piece of rock to another, larger piece of rock. Comparing protection to glued-on holds is simply comparing apples to oranges; they are not even close to the same thing. I really don't understand why you guys keep putting a glued-on hold in the same category as protection!
--Marc | |
By Bob D'Antonio
From Superior, CO
Mar 3, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: When is is justifiable to glue a hold onto an otherwise natural piece of rock? Any reasonable example will suffice. --Marc
I never said it was right...I'm talking about replacing a hold that broke off.
There is a difference. | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 3, 2008
| Bob D'Antonio wrote: Thank you John for being (along with Ken, Richard and me) the voice of reason. LOL
You're right. Me being against glued-on holds is completely unreasonable.
--Marc | |
By Bob D'Antonio
From Superior, CO
Mar 3, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: I really don't understand why you guys keep putting a glued-on hold in the same category as protection! --Marc
They all alter the rock from it's natural state. | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 3, 2008
| Bob D'Antonio wrote: I never said it was right...I'm talking about replacing a hold that broke off. There is a difference.
Please excuse me if I'm misinterpreting this statement, but I read:
"It's OK to glue a hold on if it breaks off."
--Marc | |
By Zed
From Gotham City
Mar 3, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: Pins, cams, stoppers, and bolts are used for protection. In this case we're talking about someone using glue or epoxy to secure a piece of rock to another, larger piece of rock. Comparing protection to glued-on holds is simply comparing apples to oranges; they are not even close to the same thing. I really don't understand why you guys keep putting a glued-on hold in the same category as protection! --Marc
Marc,
If you tell me that you have free climbed a classic 5.11 crack, which I know to have been enhanced by pins, over time, I will contend that you had climbed a manufactured route. If you were able to lock or jam a finger in a crack only because it has been enlarged by repeated nailing, then how in the world could you ever call it - by any stretch of the imagination - a natural route? Think carefully before you answer this one. | |
By Bob D'Antonio
From Superior, CO
Mar 3, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: Please excuse me if I'm misinterpreting this statement, but I read: "It's OK to glue a hold on if it breaks off." --Marc
Yes...in my opinion.
You have no problem with using pins that intentionally alter the natural state of the rock...but using a little glue to put on a hold that broke off really bothers you.
It's oh so clear to me now. | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 3, 2008
| Ken Cangi wrote: Marc, If you tell me that you have free climbed a classic 5.11 crack, which I know to have been enhanced by pins, over time, I will contend that you had climbed a manufactured route. If you were able to jam a finger in a crack only because it has been enlarged by repeated nailing, then how in the world could you ever call it - by any stretch of the imagination - a natural route? Think carefully before you answer this one.
I wouldn't say that I climbed this hypothetical route in it's natural state. I climbed Serenity Crack a couple years ago in it's current state; the same state that virtually every free-climber has climbed it in. From the moment that crack had it's first pin slammed into it, till the moment that it had it's last pin slammed into it, that route has been getting easier and easier. I understand that.
My point is that using pitons to protect against a fall is nowhere near the same as gluing a hold onto a boulder problem; not even fucking close.
I still have yet for someone to give me an example as to when it's justifiable to glue a smaller piece of rock onto a larger piece of rock. I just want one reasonable example! If no one can give me one, then we're done here, IMO.
--Marc | |
By Zed
From Gotham City
Mar 3, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: I wouldn't say that I climbed this hypothetical route in it's natural state. I climbed Serenity Crack a couple years ago in it's current state; the same state that virtually every free-climber has climbed it in. From the moment that crack had it's first pin slammed into it, till the moment that it had it's last pin slammed into it, that route has been getting easier and easier. I understand that. My point is that using pitons to protect against a fall is nowhere near the same as gluing a hold onto a boulder problem; not even fucking close. I still have yet for someone to give me an example as to when it's justifiable to glue a smaller piece of rock onto a larger piece of rock. I just want one reasonable example! If no one can give me one, then we're done here, IMO. --Marc
By your answers so far, I don't think anyone's example - reasonable or not - will satisfy you. | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 3, 2008
| Bob D'Antonio wrote: You have no problem with using pins that intentionally alter the natural state of the rock...
I've never (oh, there's that nasty word again) placed a piton in my entire life. Not once.
Bob wrote: but using a little glue to put on a hold that broke off really bothers you.
It is accurate to say that gluing on holds does "really bother [me]." That is a fair statement and one that I'll stand behind.
Bob wrote: It's oh so clear to me now.
I can't believe it really took you that long.
--Marc | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 3, 2008
| Ken Cangi wrote: By your answers so far, I don't think anyone's example - reasonable or not - will satisfy you.
WHAT?!?!? That's the worst cop-out I've ever heard! That's your excuse for not coming up with an example!?!? Why don't you try, Ken (or anyone else for that matter)?
--Marc | |
By Bob D'Antonio
From Superior, CO
Mar 3, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: I've never (oh, there's that nasty word again) placed a piton in my entire life. Not once. --Marc
No..but you have no problem using them or the scars they leave even through you know that they intentionally alter the rock.
You are a hypocrite.
| |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 3, 2008
| Bob D'Antonio wrote: No..but you have no problem using them or the scars they leave even through [sic] you know that they intentionally alter the rock.
I clip pitons to keep me from decking. I avoid manufactured climbing routes and boulder problems because I find them wholly unappealing. That's not the definition of a hypocrite.
Bob wrote: You are a hypocrite.
Funny. Maybe you should look up the definition; it is incorrect to call me a hypocrite for clipping pitons but avoiding manufactured climbs. It simply doesn't fit, Bob.
--Marc | |
By Zed
From Gotham City
Mar 3, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: WHAT?!?!? That's the worst cop-out I've ever heard! That's your excuse for not coming up with an example!?!? Why don't you try, Ken (or anyone for that matter)? --Marc
Marc,
This is the problem with arguing in absolutes. As I already pointed out, no matter which reason someone gives for gluing a hold back on, you have already made it painfully clear that there is "NO" excuse as far as you're concerned. Hence, why even try? | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Mar 4, 2008
| Ken Cangi wrote: Marc, This is the problem with arguing in absolutes. As I already pointed out, no matter which reason someone gives for gluing a hold back on, you have already made it painfully clear that there is "NO" excuse as far as you're concerned. Hence, why even try?
Because I've been proven wrong before. Ken, you and I have been involved in some of the same threads here on MP.com. Therefore, I have to assume that you've seen me proven wrong before. If someone comes up with a reasonable example of when it might be justifiable to glue a hold onto an otherwise natural rock, I would be happy to hear it.
You don't know until you try.
--Marc | |
By kirra
Mar 4, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: I still have yet for someone to give me an example as to when it's justifiable to glue a smaller piece of rock onto a larger piece of rock. I just want one reasonable example!
When one wishes to create a Rock of Aesthetic value | |
By Zed
From Gotham City
Mar 4, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: Because I've been proven wrong before. Ken, you and I have been involved in some of the same threads here on MP.com. Therefore, I have to assume that you've seen me proven wrong before. If someone comes up with a reasonable example of when it might be justifiable to glue a hold onto an otherwise natural rock, I would be happy to hear it. You don't know until you try. --Marc
Reasonable arguments have been presented, for some of us. | |
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