By Shawn Mitchell
From Broomfield
Jul 24, 2008
| Cool background Hank. For you, we get to worry about two things: Climb safe; Jump safe.
Marc, I missed this earlier:
Marc Horan wrote: I prefer the first argument that you handed me. They seem to be going downhill from there. I didn't realize that I only had a choice between two arguments: The first one you threw out there and the "libertarian I-only-have-to-obey-legitimate-laws argument."
Actually Marc, I think the arguments are the same, one just expresses more detail than the other.
The libertarian I-only-have-to-obey-legitimate-laws argument rests on a premise: Society needs a legitimate interest to justify restricting personal freedom. You have some moral justification for dissing laws that lack that legitimate basis.
Raptor bans and cliff jumping are just specific cases under the general rule, with different arguments why one is legit and the other may not be. Trying to illustrate the distinction was Argument # 1, which you seemed to like.
But to separate the two, and argue maybe one should be obeyed and the other not, you have to accept the premise that some laws deserve to be obeyed--are legitimate--and some aren't.
That's Argument # 2, which you claim not to like. But if you don't go there, then you can't argue there's any difference between bird bans and jump bans. They're both law. |  |
By MikeP
From Arvada, CO
Jul 24, 2008
| Richard Radcliffe wrote: Really? Wow. You've got a pretty vivid imagination. Hasn't happened yet despite continued jumping in Yosemite and elsewhere. It's been illegal in the NPS for what, some 20 or more years?
It's not like it happens everyday - compared to climbing activity BASE jumps are pretty fringe element type activities. Don't get me wrong - I'm planning to take my first leap from a plane this summer and think a BASE jump is crazy cool to watch, but I'd bet ya that if it were to become a 'persistent' occurance within National Parks, the rangers would react and we'd ALL see our access privilege affected.
and that'd be a damn shame. | |
By Richard Radcliffe
From Louisville, CO
Jul 24, 2008
| MikeP wrote: and that'd be a damn shame.
That part is true for sure. But the NPS is probably a little more sophisticated than people would like to give them credit. Using your logic, the NPS would end up banning hiking since that is how most BASE jumpers get to the top of their objective; much, much more so than climbing to the top. | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Jul 25, 2008
| Great thread. Here's my argument for BASE jumping: Personal freedom. You've all heard (and possibly subscribe to) a version of it; I'm not gonna go any further with it on a general level. However, when it comes to climbing and BASE jumping I'd like to elaborate.
At one time, climbers in Yosemite were "somewhere between hippies and bears." While I wasn't around during this time, I don't doubt that the majority of the rangers would have banned climbing entirely had the climbers of the day--just like today--not been in such numbers and had such passion for their pursuit. Climbing transcends all else in the mind of a climber. We've all seen it; I think most of us have experienced it. It is an activity that means as much to most of as our families. Maybe I should only speak for myself with the latter statement, but I think many of you can relate.
While BASE jumping is not climbing, and never will be, I've seen the same passion in the eyes of BASE jumpers as I have in climbers. Furthermore, they are really not in danger of hurting anyone but themselves. I see no reason that they should not be able to pursue their passion in an organized and legal fashion. None whatsoever. I leave open the possibility that someone can give me a powerful reason that no BASE jumpers be allowed to jump in any National Park but I truly doubt there is one.
--Marc
NSFOD--
You appear to be against BASE jumping. Or maybe you're against violating bans. I'm not sure because you haven't made any real arguments; you've resorted to attacking mine instead. As a climber who has apparently (NSFOD) been around the block a few times and possibly watched the sport of BASE jumping emerge around us climbers (climbers and BASE heads often share the same Es) from sky-diving, I'd truly be interested in what your opinions are surrounding this activity. Do you have an opinion to share instead of rhetoric?
--Marc | |
By Monomaniac
From Morrison, CO
Jul 25, 2008
| Marc Horan wrote: NSFOD-- You appear to be against BASE jumping. Or maybe you're against violating bans.
Ugh.
NSFOD is opposed to bird-related climbing closures. His initial post was sarcastic. He is attempting to point out the hypocrisy displayed on this forum by those who insist bird-related climbing bans should be obeyed, but BASE jumping bans should be ignored.
Do we really need 2 pages & 50 posts to get that clear? I have work to do! (being sarcastic for those who don't get it) | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Jul 25, 2008
| Are you his agent? Is he not able to speak for himself?
Whatever, I guess it doesn't matter. I don't know why I bother with him.
--Marc
Edit: No offense intended, Mono. I realize that you're are trying to help me understand his POV and I do appreciate it. Thanks. | |
By Shawn Mitchell
From Broomfield
Jul 25, 2008
| Monomaniac wrote: Ugh. NSFOD is opposed to bird-related climbing closures. His initial post was sarcastic. He is attempting to point out the hypocrisy displayed on this forum by those who insist bird-related climbing bans should be obeyed, but BASE jumping bans should be ignored. Do we really need 2 pages & 50 posts to get that clear? I have work to do! (being sarcastic for those who don't get it)
Thanks for making it even blindingly clearer Mono. But NSFOD's sarcastic point only works if people accept a logical connection between the two bans. Marc claims not to see it, which is the rock I've been beating my head against...
Marc your post this morning is a fine argument...for what the policy should be if we were the policy makers. But that ain't the case. We are climbers. Our question isn't which policy to adopt, it's how to respond. Do we generally follow the law, or do we invent different rationales to ignore every law we disagree with?
NSFOD's point kinda requires a law-abiding perspective in order to click. And maybe he's not coming back because he decided to stop bothering with you. | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Jul 25, 2008
| Shawn Mitchell wrote: Thanks for making it even blindingly clearer Mono. But NSFOD's sarcastic point only works if people accept a logical connection between the two bans. Marc claims not to see it, which is the rock I've been beating my head against...
I'm sorry. The connection is where? One more time?
The only connection I see is that they are both bans. However, one relates to climbing in specific areas at specific times and the other is a blanket-ban on an entirely different activity. Just because some climbers BASE doesn't mean that that raptor bans have anything to do with the jumping bans.
Shawn Mitchell wrote: Marc your post this morning is a fine argument...for what the policy should be if we were the policy makers. But that ain't the case. We are climbers.
Uhhhh....yup. Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't really expect anyone's post to be drafted into law.
I guess I can be pretty sarcastic when I want to also.
Shawn Mitchell wrote: Do we follow generally follow the law, or do we invent different rationales to ignore every law we disagree with?
I "generally follow the law." I think that there are a bunch of ridiculous laws out there. Some of which, when broken, hurt no one. Victim-less crimes they call them. I would argue that it's stupid to spend our societies resources on writing and enforcing said laws...and then making the state/fed gov't house those that are convicted of breaking said laws.
Shawn Mitchell wrote: NSFOD's point kinda requires a law-abiding perspective in order to click.
[LOL] I'm not even gonna go there.
Shawn Mitchell wrote: And maybe he's not coming back because he decided to stop bothering with you.
Funny. I assumed he wasn't "coming back" because he didn't really have an argument; just a bunch of sarcasm. But maybe you're right. I don't really care though because it's insignificant.
As you have seen, Shawn, when I post up here I am very idealistic. When I'm on the street or at the crag, I'm significantly more pragmatic. It's probably important to note that since I'm all but unknown to you.
--Marc | |
By Tradster
Jul 25, 2008
| I could be wrong, but I believe the BASE jumping ban started in Yosemite, and much of it was due to traffic stopping on the roads to watch their descents off of El Cap. I really don't see a logical reason for banning BASE jumping or hang gliders...they certainly aren't mechanical devices, they use trails to get to their launch points, and probably have less impact than a hiker because the airborne guy or gal isn't even using a trail to come back down.
Having said that, I feel that if a regulatory prohibition is in place, it should be followed. If a user group violates the restriction, it just becomes harder to try and remove it later on, due to the perception of 'lawlessness' by authorities towards the affected user group.
I just think their activity is perceived as 'too extreme' by the Park authorities. | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Jul 25, 2008
| William Dacier wrote: I could be wrong, but I believe the BASE jumping ban started in Yosemite, and much of it was due to traffic stopping on the roads to watch their descents off of El Cap.
Looks like it's time to exterminate all of the wildlife in the parks too! They, without a doubt, stop more traffic than anything in the parks. :)
--Marc | |
By Monomaniac
From Morrison, CO
Jul 25, 2008
| I don't know why I'm still here, but...
Marc Horan wrote: one relates to climbing in specific areas at specific times and the other is a blanket-ban on an entirely different activity.
Incorrect. Some bird-bans are perrenial (like the Ralston Butte ban), as are some BASE bans (like the NPS ban). Some bird-bans are temporary (like the Redgarden ban), and some BASE bans are temporary (like the ban on jumping from the NRG bridge).
Both Bird-bans & BASE bans are geographically based (the activity is allowed in certain areas and prohibited in others). For example, BASE is allowed on BLM land, not allowed on NPS land. Climbing is allowed in CCC, not allowed on Ralston Buttes.
Furthermore, I would argue, that these are not "entirely different activit[ies]" in the eyes of land managers. Both are frivolous, viewed as high-risk, recreation, don't generate significant revenue for the agency, and involve fringe user groups with little political power. | |
By Gary Burghoff
Jul 25, 2008
| Actually BASE jumping isn't banned in National Parks. It falls under the aerial delivery law. This law was first written to stop hunter and squatters in NPS land from having supplies dropped off to them via parachute. This is the outdated law that rangers throw at jumpers. The NPS issues a permit for 6 hours a year in October that people can jump the New River Gorge Bridge, it is also during this time that rappellers are allowed to rappel off it. Basically the NPS sucks and doesn't support constitutional rights and freedom. They are using a way old outdated law to mess with people. | |
By Marc Horan
From Lafayette, CO
Jul 25, 2008
| Monomaniac wrote: I don't know why I'm still here, but... Incorrect. Some bird-bans are perrenial (like the Ralston Butte ban), as are some BASE bans (like the NPS ban). Some bird-bans are temporary (like the Redgarden ban), and some BASE bans are temporary (like the ban on jumping from the NRG bridge).
I think you missed the gist of my post. But that's OK. I've put my opinion out there and people are free to form their own opinions (if they haven't already).
Safe climbing and jumping everyone!
--Marc | |
By Rich Servantes III
From Toyota-rado
Jul 27, 2008
| SAL wrote: Holy friggen shitstains batman!!! You met Servantes himself??? I sure hope you offered to rub his shoulders during belay changes.
SAL, I told you I wouldn't let anyone else do that for me!!
On to the original post. . .
I was climbing under FC John when we saw the BASE jumper. WOW!!!
That's not the first time I've seen this and it looked just as bad ass as every other time!! I watched a guy jump off El Cap when we were about 1/2 way up the Shnozz right at dusk when visibility was a bit low. Then a week or two later saw 2 guys launch off Half Dome in bird suits. Friggin SICK!!!! These guys had to have flown for over a minute before disappearing north-east around the slabs and didn't open their chutes the entire time that we could see them!!! That looks like a rush!!
Then the BIG "D"!! At first, I thought it was some sort of rock fall or something. Scared the hell outta me!! Did the typicall lean in and cover my head routine then, looked up and saw the jumper with his chute open sailing gracefully to the valley floor. He was doing some spins and turns and just looked to be having AT LEAST as good a time as we were on a beautifull alpine morning!! I was a bit jealous for a second!! Dreams of flying passed through my head!!
The funny thing is we were camped up at chasm for three nights. Monday, before I left I had made b-day plans my girl (her b-day) for indoor skydiving when I returned. (I realize it's probably equateable to the gym vs. outdoor argument) But gosh dang that was fun!! I'm going back and I think I'll have to pick up another hobby to add to my list of things to make me not want to work!! (not the indoor thing but real skydiving not even considering BASE after what Hank had to say!!)
P.S. I smoked Chucky in that battle!! Ask him.
Kateri, you're too kind you girls were a pleasure too hang out with keep pushing and having a great time!! And, to answer your ???
I don't eat breakfast, just "coffe, sometimes toast" ;)
Well just had to stop by work to check some e-mails (I'm on vacation)
so I'm outta here!! I'll be at Chasm for another 3 nights this coming week staying out of the heat! Hope to see some of you out there!!
Frijol Saltando ;) | |
By Greg German
From Broomfield, CO
Jul 28, 2008
| Another jumper:
Dave Champion and I were in the North Chimney this morning at first light. We heard a loud sound like a jet plane and looked up. In the dim light, it looked like a stealth fighter was buzzing the top of Longs. A moment later we heard the nylon flapping from the wing suit. He popped the chute below Broadway and it made a tremendous racket in the still morning air. For a moment it looked like he was going to swing back into the lower east face but he quickly corrected and landed about 50 feet from the end of the snow on Mills. Pretty amazing. | |
By Fear of an NPS planet
From colorado
Jul 31, 2008
| Not So Famous Old Dude wrote: But BASE jumpers should respect all jumping bans, right? I mean, if we respect falcon closures, we should respect NPS bans on jumping, right? Right?
As a BASE jumper and a climber, I for one, as well as the people I jump/climb with respect all wildlife bans and accept them as the way it is. I do not, however, have the same respect for the NPS as I do for nesting raptors... | |
By Fear of an NPS planet
From colorado
Jul 31, 2008
| Richard Radcliffe wrote: Then why aren't there more people BASE jumping off of Long's?
Because it's a gnarly jump/landing, and the majority of BASE jumpers don't have the technical skills to make the approach/jump. | |
By Hank Caylor
From Eldorado Springs, CO
Aug 1, 2008
| Greg German wrote: Another jumper: For a moment it looked like he was going to swing back into the lower east face but he quickly corrected and landed about 50 feet from the end of the snow on Mills. Pretty amazing.
It wasn't a "he", it was a she, heh heh! | |
By micahisaac
From Boulder, CO
Aug 1, 2008
| Rich Servantes III wrote: SAL, I told you I wouldn't let anyone else do that for me!! On to the original post. . . I was climbing under FC John when we saw the BASE jumper. WOW!!! That's not the first time I've seen this and it looked just as bad ass as every other time!! I watched a guy jump off El Cap when we were about 1/2 way up the Shnozz right at dusk when visibility was a bit low. Then a week or two later saw 2 guys launch off Half Dome in bird suits. Friggin SICK!!!! These guys had to have flown for over a minute before disappearing north-east around the slabs and didn't open their chutes the entire time that we could see them!!! That looks like a rush!! Then the BIG "D"!! At first, I thought it was some sort of rock fall or something. Scared the hell outta me!! Did the typicall lean in and cover my head routine then, looked up and saw the jumper with his chute open sailing gracefully to the valley floor. He was doing some spins and turns and just looked to be having AT LEAST as good a time as we were on a beautifull alpine morning!! I was a bit jealous for a second!! Dreams of flying passed through my head!! The funny thing is we were camped up at chasm for three nights. Monday, before I left I had made b-day plans my girl (her b-day) for indoor skydiving when I returned. (I realize it's probably equateable to the gym vs. outdoor argument) But gosh dang that was fun!! I'm going back and I think I'll have to pick up another hobby to add to my list of things to make me not want to work!! (not the indoor thing but real skydiving not even considering BASE after what Hank had to say!!) P.S. I smoked Chucky in that battle!! Ask him. Kateri, you're too kind you girls were a pleasure too hang out with keep pushing and having a great time!! And, to answer your ??? I don't eat breakfast, just "coffe, sometimes toast" ;) Well just had to stop by work to check some e-mails (I'm on vacation) so I'm outta here!! I'll be at Chasm for another 3 nights this coming week staying out of the heat! Hope to see some of you out there!! Frijol Saltando ;)
Happy Birthday Primo! | |
By J. Thompson
From denver, co
Aug 2, 2008
| Hank Caylor wrote: It wasn't a "he", it was a she, heh heh!
NO WAY!! SWEET!!!!
"IF" you happen to know her....tell her congrats.
josh | |
By Hank Caylor
From Eldorado Springs, CO
Aug 2, 2008
| J. Thompson wrote: "IF" you happen to know her....tell her congrats. josh
You know who she is. But a gentleman never asks and a lady never tells. | |
By Greg German
From Broomfield, CO
Aug 2, 2008
| Hank Caylor wrote: It wasn't a "he", it was a she, heh heh!
I am a presumptuous male.
The lady in question has my sincere apology and admiration.
80) | |
By J. Thompson
From denver, co
Aug 2, 2008
| Hank Caylor wrote: You know who she is. But a gentleman never asks and a lady never tells.
That ain't no lady! And neither one of us are gentlemen!
....kidding of course! Super excited for her.
josh | |
|
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