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By Mees
From Iowa
Feb 20, 2014
How would you like 30 people showing up at one of your local free/rock climbing areas to dry tool those rock climbs? That's exactly what the organizer of the Cody Ice Festival did last weekend in an effort to wrong the right imposed on several of his festival's attendees.

the article below illustrates what happened quite well.


yellowstonegate.com/2014/02/cl...

there are an infinite number of places in the area where one could dry tool that would not effect any rock climb. Only laziness prevented this from happening.

If this isn't something you want to see happening at your local rock climbing area, take five minutes and e-mail/call one or more of the sponsors of the event know what they are supporting.

1st of all call Don at the local USFS office office 307-527 6921

Sponsor list from the ice fest website if you are so inclined

Grivel
Fixe hardware
Sterling rope
Eddie bauer
New Belgium brewing
Mountain hardware
Kates real food
Rock and ice magazine
Petzl
Big agnes
American alpine club
Black diamond
Asolo
Mammut
Patagonia
La sportive
Cloudveil
Osprey
Brooks range mountaineering
Fremont beverages
Access fund
Cassin
Smith optics
Camp
Hyperlite mountain gear
Rock exotica
Honey stinger
DDX ranch
Schmoolz
Beal
Atomic climbing holds

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By Todd Cozzens 1
Feb 20, 2014
Can you say Larceny/Fraud and Vandalism?

The attendees at the so-called Festival were informed Friday night that no clinics would be held due to the USFS's concerns about high avalanche risks and his insurance would not cover such risk.

The truth is that his permit was suspended due to a total lack of insurance. No refunds were offered or even a discount for next years event.

I had a meeting with a USFS representative, Don Christman, today and I would like to see more people call him @307-527-6921 or 307-578-5229. He has already received a few private and media related calls, but needs more voices. He will be out of the office til Tuesday, Feb. 25th.

I also met with the County Attorney today. He said he would have a hard time with Criminal Fraud charges because it would be difficult to prove intent... He advised that the people who payed for clinics that never happened need to file a small claims complaint at the courthouse to get their money back.

I have spoken with several of the guides who hired on to teach the clinics. My friend from Jackson Hole said that when the bad news was delivered and the clinics would move to the rock his clients left. So he made other plans for the weekend and didn't get paid for his services. The other local guide played along and took his clients to the Island (the popular rock climbing area) but set his ropes on a steep snowy gully and insisted that they not scratch on any of the established rock climbing routes.

Doesn't sound very Festive to me!

Mr. Southfork

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By Mike Snyder
Administrator
Feb 20, 2014
I visited the Island on Sunday after hearing about the dubious activity on Saturday the 15th, 2014. I walked in to find people climbing on long established and beloved sport climbs with ice tools and crampons being guided by (NAME REMOVED DUE TO WEASEL NOT WANTING HIS NAME IN PRINT) who was in the employ of Don Foote, founder and longtime promoter of the Cody Ice Climbing Festival.

I politely introduced myself to this Mountain guide and kindly asked him to cease and desist, explaining I had no authority to stop him, but was appealing to his ethical sense of right and wrong. He basically told me he was on the clock and would finish the class and the granite would not be harmed by ice tools and crampons, he was a professional, questioned my credentials and on and on...

What kind of message are this guide and event promoter sending to these students? Do you think they will return to their home town crags and attempt to scratch their way up the local crags. What if they show up at Rifle or Red Rocks or the Red River Gorge and tried this?

Please voice your opinion on this.

Contact Don Foote. Contact Pete Ramos. Contact the event Sponsors. Contact The USFS office in Cody. Let them know how you feel.

Your voice may make the difference.

FLAG
By Don Foote
Feb 20, 2014
Mr. Mees & Mr. Cozzens-
Thanks for your social media coverage. Allow me to clarify for you what really happened since you where not there or climbing last weekend.
It appears that social media is the way to communicate and not confront face to face now days so allow me to clarify a few things.
As many of you may know the topic of ice climbers climbing in a rock climbing area is getting a lot of media attention this week. I’m not saying names or pointing fingers but I first would like to admit and tell my side of the story and not the social medias misperception of what ice climbers did.
The “liability” insurance I need for the “special use permit” is the same as I have provided the last (4) four years to Shoshone National Forest. There was a change in the carrier this year and taken to an office based in Denver, CO. In the days leading up to the event several phone calls about the insurance policy cost was discussed. The policy had nearly tripled based on other festivals and injuries climbers have received in 2013 Rocky Mountain Region.
An automatic withdrawal of the last 1/3 payment was to be paid in full. Late Thursday afternoon the local insurance service found a typo worded as such; ice climbers are (EX) excluded and it simply should have been (IN) included in the liability for “guiding” on a special use permit. By close of business (02.13.2014) the Shoshone USFS Cody office never received the copy of the policy as it was never paid in full by the carrier. The Cody Ice Climbing Festival began and scheduled clinics left early (7am) on Friday February 14th from the Beta Coffee House. I received a phone call on late Friday afternoon asking for proof of the copy which I thought was all taken care of. Obviously it was not. Friday February 14th evening (9:20pm) District Ranger Sue Stressor and an unknown field officer came to the Cody Auditorium to meet me. Still no proof was provided and subsequently I received a letter of immediate “suspension” for Saturday 15th and Sunday 16th on-ice clinics unless I could provide “proof”.
Quickly contacting the local insurance company late evening and out of town, they advised they would not cover the participants in guided clinics per what they have been hearing rumors of avalanche dangers and the amount of snowfall for Cody Area Mountains are receiving. A secondary company would cover us but it would cost an additional $1648.98 and we simply could not afford the policy. With the recent over night snowfall we had a “guides” meeting while more than 35 ice climbers waited to leave for their “guided” climbing adventure for the day.
The suggestion was made to offer an educational “dry land” training exercise. NOT mixed climbing as some have quoted.
I would like to clarify what we did on Saturday February 15th.
Guides offered an anchor building skills station(s) where in small groups they practiced along the Egyptian Wall closest to the tunnel. Another guide saw a snow runnel on a low grade ramp in the far north corner with NO obvious signs of bolt/hanger and certainly NOT a rock route. There they did use crampons and tools to climb the low grade 5.4-5.6 line. On the wet streaks on the west side of the actual “Island” where ice has formed in past but not an obvious frozen waterfall or a rock route YES we did mix climb there being anchored up above on the dead timber tree as the anchor for (2) two ropes.
At Bruce’s crack we had another anchor building station with a small rack that a guide happen to have with him. This was a favorite as many ice climbers have never used cams, nuts or other pro. On the SAR Wall/ South Ridge approach of the “Island” we had (3) three different lines on the chos like 5.4-5.7 routes on top rope. Here these ice climbers worked on their knowledge, skills and ability to put it all together with guidance of a guide on the ground. Rope one was climbing in mountaineering boots, no tools. Rope two was boots with tools in hands. Rope three was crampons on the walk up/solo south ridge of the island with no tools.
NO scratching, scaring or altering the “natural” rock was harmed! FYI- the climber’s said they found a hanger missing and a “sharp” bolt sticking out of the rock???
On the other side; to the right of a route that I know as Bobby and the Bosch; a natural small crack non rock established route; a guide established a top rope and climbers after completing the other work stations put it all together what they had learned from 9am – 3pm that day and climbed a non established rock route.
The ICE CLIMBERS picked up and filled a 45-gallon garbage can that we provided and packed in and packed out after we had a small bbq and grilled some burgers for all. Honestly, I had not been to the “Island” since last summer late July 2013. I was disgusted on the vandalism with spray paint, broken glass, found old clothing that looked like it was used as toilet paper, a rock climbers chalk bag hanging up high on a ledge above the tunnels and general trash everywhere. This was embarrassing to me and the ice climbers as the “Island” area was trashed!
Trust me, no ice climber damaged any hanger or bolt up there. No stein pulls or other action of an ice tool even came close to touching a bolt n hanger. I was told that it’s been published in the media that some think this was unethical? I don’t see it as that but the trash and lack of “clean-up” of a popular rock climbing area that I see that is unethical to let the local spot be so filthy.
I’m not trying to start a war as the media states. We as a group of the Cody Ice Climbing Festival made a group decision to salvage what we could. I look at is as “education” of 30+ ice climbers were exposed to one of our popular rock climbing areas Cody has to offer. As the director, I take full responsibility for this event happening at the “Island” and no one else is to blame.
If any of you have comments or want to meet in person I will be happy to do so. I think we are all adults in a very small climbing community in North-West Wyoming area(s). What has been quoted an old”hot spot” of the climbing community I agree 100% and you all probably do to. We all need to work together and not against one another. Social media can ruin many and misconstrued what the “truth” really is for those who were not there and only here rumors of what happened or who did what.
CREDIT will be offered for CICF#17. More details will be posted soon!
Don Foote JR.
Cody Ice Climbing Festival

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By Mike Snyder
Administrator
Feb 20, 2014
Close up of crampon gouges.
Close up of crampon gouges.


This what i could photograph from the ground. I have not had an opportunity to inspect the handful of other sport routes affected.

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By Mike Snyder
Administrator
Feb 20, 2014
What message is this 9-year old kid taking away from your class, Don?
What message is this 9-year old kid taking away from your class, Don?

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By Don Foote
Feb 20, 2014
Mike Snyder?
Is this same Mike Snyder who attended the 16th Cody Ice Climbing Festival and promoted the Bighorn Climbers Coalition Friday & Saturday night?

If so, no need to add fuel to the social media fire....

Don't be afraid, give me a call. I'm happy to meet you in person!

Don Foote
Cody Ice Climbing Festival
307.899.9937

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By Kirt Cozzens
Feb 20, 2014
Hello all. Amazing to me that it has taken 16 of these Cody Ice Festivals to uncover that the organizer is a dishonest shame to the Cody climbing community. The Truth hurts and he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

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By Todd Cozzens 1
Feb 20, 2014
Well said brother! And Don, I've got my 40 in for the week, not working tomorrow and would like to see you "face to face". Stop on by in the morning.

Mr Southfork

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By Don Foote
Feb 20, 2014
Kirt- Sorry you feel that way especially after you have attended several of the Cody Ice Climbing Festivals and I have many great memories working for you back in the day at Alpine Style.

Todd- I have a few friends in town still ice climbing. I wanted to go with them but meeting you is important to me so let's meet at the Beta 9am? Maybe Mike can meet there also?

Don Foote

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By Todd Cozzens 1
Feb 20, 2014
Coffee at the Beta it is.

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By Mees
From Iowa
Feb 21, 2014
Don I'm not going to bother reading most
of that wall of text. Mikes photo clearly
illustrate clents of the Cody ice festival dry
tooling established routes at the Island .
no amount of your BS can sweep that
under the rug. This is one of the more respected
climbing web sites there is. A lot of rock
climbers read this forum and you should
be worried because I really doubt
most of them want to see this type of
precedent in their back yard. I Know that
I will not be purchasing brands that sponsor
The willful destruction of free climbing areas.
, especially not one that Bobby , Todd ,Mike
Kirt ,Monte Rick our kids & many many
other folks learned to climb at! Good day

FLAG
By Brock Smith
Feb 21, 2014
This is my favorite!
I was one of the climbers that was climbing this day and am actually the climber pictured with a caption about how I'm ruining the climbing area or something like that. I find this incredibly disrespectful on so many levels:

1. Anyone with half a brain knows that metal tools are not going to permanently scar granite rock. If this was sandstone, limestone, or dolomite this would have been a different story. Since every party involved is also a sport climber we could understand the concern and we voiced this. First immediately after Mike Snyder "voiced his opinion on rock climbing ethics" we removed our crampons and were climbing in only alpine boots (as pictured). Second if you know anything about ice tools, it is not easy to use the same holds you would use sport climbing with your hands. The holds we were using for our tools (which you can easily see in Snyder's pictures) would be impossible to use with bare hands. We search out the smallest (MUCH smaller than finger width) cracks to place our tools. When a good hand hold is presented, we would use our gloved hands (why wouldn't you?) instead of tools. A strictly rock climber does not understand dry tooling enough to comprehend these minute differences between possible hold and climbing tactics. I suppose if I was grossly misinformed, I too would think that tools could damage the same holds used by rock climbers.

2. Mike Snyder, the man who felt he alone had the "authority" to tell people what type of climbing is acceptable on public land, was present at the Cody Ice Climbing Festival Saturday 2/15 when it was declared (multiple times) that we would meet at "the island" for dry tooling the next morning. He obviously decided not to speak up and tell people that he thought this was wrong, which is what a normal man would have done. Instead he hiked out and started a confrontation with the climbers at the area the next morning, which did not go at all the way he explained. Mike Snyder was very rude, pretentious, condescending, and self entitled. Luckily the guide named earlier in this forum was able to defuse the situation despite Snyder's standoffish attitude. This guide did an outstanding job, he has been my guide at other ice festivals and will be a guide for several of my future endeavors guaranteed, I strongly recommend him.

3. Mike Snyder explicitly told us that he has authority over this climbing area since he was the first man to deface the granite by and I quote "drilling bolt holes, scraping and brushing off the lichen and other plant life on the rock, and using a crowbar to dislodge loose rocks from the routes." Since Mike Snyder was the first to deface these rocks, he is the sole decision maker of who gets to use these rocks and what kind of climbing they can use them for. After telling us this Mike Snyder had the grit to start a "climbing ethics" discussion, he went on to tell us that what we were doing was "unethical". Apparently in Mike Snyder's mind, defacing a rock by drilling holes in it, brushing and scraping native plants off of it, and using a crowbar to pry off pieces of rock, as well as using chalk on it, all while using "from the top down" route placing, is a grey line which he can cross whenever he pleases. Yet using ice climbing tools on the rock is a dark black line that cannot be crossed, at least as long as he "owns" this rock.

5. Let it be known that normally I or any other party involved in this group wouldn't do this type of thing normally (i.e. taking ice tools to dry tool at a local crag). I am an avid rock climber and will free climb 99% of the time. This isn't becoming an epidemic like Mike Snyder might make it sound because generally climbers rock climb in the warm months and ice climb in the cold months. We were dry tooling this particular day because we had the tools as demo gear and wanted to learn and practice some vital alpine skills instead of sitting in a hotel room all day. I can personally guarantee that no climber will ever notice that people were dry tooling at "their crag".

I feel bad that Don Foote and the Cody Ice Climbing Festival are catching the flak for this. This man has organized the greatest ice climbing festival in the northern rockies, especially for beginners with the incredibly low guide to client ratio in his clinics. And this festival which was organized by Don Foote is DIRECTLY responsible for my passion for rock and ice climbing which has become such a major part of my life.

Thanks Mike Snyder for posting my FIRST EVER picture on mountain project as a negative without any sort of consent from myself. I have a far better criminal case against you for this gross act of negligence than you do against any of the parties responsible for whatever you are saying happened. You should be ASHAMED.

FLAG
By Jan Roestel
Feb 21, 2014
Brock Smith wrote:
I was one of the climbers that was climbing this day and am actually the climber pictured with a caption about how I'm ruining the climbing area or something like that. I find this incredibly disrespectful on so many levels: 1. Anyone with half a brain knows that metal tools are not going to permanently scar granite rock. If this was sandstone, limestone, or dolomite this would have been a different story. Since every party involved is also a sport climber we could understand the concern and we voiced this. First immediately after Mike Snyder "voiced his opinion on rock climbing ethics" we removed our crampons and were climbing in only alpine boots (as pictured). Second if you know anything about ice tools, it is not easy to use the same holds you would use sport climbing with your hands. The holds we were using for our tools (which you can easily see in Snyder's pictures) would be impossible to use with bare hands. We search out the smallest (MUCH smaller than finger width) cracks to place our tools. When a good hand hold is presented, we would use our gloved hands (why wouldn't you?) instead of tools. A strictly rock climber does not understand dry tooling enough to comprehend these minute differences between possible hold and climbing tactics. I suppose if I was grossly misinformed, I too would think that tools could damage the same holds used by rock climbers. 2. Mike Snyder, the man who felt he alone had the "authority" to tell people what type of climbing is acceptable on public land, was present at the Cody Ice Climbing Festival Saturday 2/15 when it was declared (multiple times) that we would meet at "the island" for dry tooling the next morning. He obviously decided not to speak up and tell people that he thought this was wrong, which is what a normal man would have done. Instead he hiked out and started a confrontation with the climbers at the area the next morning, which did not go at all the way he explained. Mike Snyder was very rude, pretentious, condescending, and self entitled. Luckily the guide named earlier in this forum was able to defuse the situation despite Snyder's standoffish attitude. This guide did an outstanding job, he has been my guide at other ice festivals and will be a guide for several of my future endeavors guaranteed, I strongly recommend him. 3. Mike Snyder explicitly told us that he has authority over this climbing area since he was the first man to deface the granite by and I quote "drilling bolt holes, scraping and brushing off the lichen and other plant life on the rock, and using a crowbar to dislodge loose rocks from the routes." Since Mike Snyder was the first to deface these rocks, he is the sole decision maker of who gets to use these rocks and what kind of climbing they can use them for. After telling us this Mike Snyder had the grit to start a "climbing ethics" discussion, he went on to tell us that what we were doing was "unethical". Apparently in Mike Snyder's mind, defacing a rock by drilling holes in it, brushing and scraping native plants off of it, and using a crowbar to pry off pieces of rock, as well as using chalk on it, all while using "from the top down" route placing, is a grey line which he can cross whenever he pleases. Yet using ice climbing tools on the rock is a dark black line that cannot be crossed, at least as long as he "owns" this rock. 5. Let it be known that normally I or any other party involved in this group wouldn't do this type of thing normally (i.e. taking ice tools to dry tool at a local crag). I am an avid rock climber and will free climb 99% of the time. This isn't becoming an epidemic like Mike Snyder might make it sound because generally climbers rock climb in the warm months and ice climb in the cold months. We were dry tooling this particular day because we had the tools as demo gear and wanted to learn and practice some vital alpine skills instead of sitting in a hotel room all day. I can personally guarantee that no climber will ever notice that people were dry tooling at "their crag". I feel bad that Don Foote and the Cody Ice Climbing Festival are catching the flak for this. This man has organized the greatest ice climbing festival in the northern rockies, especially for beginners with the incredibly low guide to client ratio in his clinics. And this festival which was organized by Don Foote is DIRECTLY responsible for my passion for rock and ice climbing which has become such a major part of my life. Thanks Mike Snyder for posting my FIRST EVER picture on mountain project as a negative without any sort of consent from myself. I have a far better criminal case against you for this gross act of negligence than you do against any of the parties responsible for whatever you are saying happened. You should be ASHAMED.


Brock, I am saving this so you can reflect on it in a few years.
I understand your enthusiasm for ice, mixed, and rock climbing, but take a deep breathe and don't worry about your first picture on mountainproject portraying you negatively. If there is nothing wrong with your actions then there is no negative portrayal, right? Or...

FLAG
By Brock Smith
Feb 21, 2014
This is my favorite!
Jan Roestel wrote:
Brock, I am saving this so you can reflect on it in a few years. I understand your enthusiasm for ice, mixed, and rock climbing, but take a deep breathe and don't worry about your first picture on mountainproject portraying you negatively. If there is nothing wrong with your actions then there is no negative portrayal, right? Or...



You are completely correct Jan and I appreciate this post. You are right that this picture does not portray me negatively and trust me I have several of these for future reference. The reason that I say these pictures are negative is because of the negative comments and false pretenses that the author who posted these without my permission has used in the posting. If you came to Fremont canyon which is exactly the same rock type and dry tooled my usual climbs I would not even notice, as well if you came to my new climbing spots in the black hills. However I find your assumptions that as a fairly new climber that I have no understanding of climbing ethics to be extremely generalized and misguided. Believe me in a few years when I have furthured my climbing skills I will reflect on this as a time of learning, first of skills that I may have never learned under other circumstances and second of how pretentious and self righteous many climbers, including yourself can be.

FLAG
By Allen Sanderson
From Oootah
Feb 21, 2014
Stairway To Heaven - all the way to the Pearly Gates <br />(i.e. 10 pitches to the tram station)
I will am not going to get into the fray as I see both sides but have some technical questions as I an confused by the permit aspects.

The festival could not be held be of a lack of proof of insurance. I understand those issues and how they can arise. And I can understand the organizers scrambled at the last minute to work something out.

However, was the event at the Island on public land? If so did the festival have required public use permits? If so was this done under the festival permit or a different guiding permit? If under the festival permit how did happen with no insurance or was the insurance issued but not for ice climbing thus the dry tooling strictly on rock.


PS Brock Smith, the photo(s) of you and others were taken in the public view as such you have no expectation of privacy. Thus no one needs your permission to take a photo of you or post a photo of you (posting a photo you took is something all together different). You have zero basis for any action as there was no attempt to defame only a discussion of your activity. As an old girl friend once said - never do anything you would not want posted on a billboard next to the freeway (or mtn project).

Finally this sentence is hilarious - Anyone with half a brain knows that metal tools are not going to permanently scar granite rock - I guess you have never been to Mt. Rushmore. it is all about context and best to make a point without going overboard.

FLAG
 
By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Feb 21, 2014
tanuki
Brock Smith wrote:
...1. Anyone with half a brain knows that metal tools are not going to permanently scar granite rock. If this was sandstone, limestone, or dolomite this would have been a different story. Since every party involved is also a sport climber we could understand the concern and we voiced this. First immediately after Mike Snyder "voiced his opinion on rock climbing ethics" we removed our crampons and were climbing in only alpine boots (as pictured). Second if you know anything about ice tools, it is not easy to use the same holds you would use sport climbing with your hands. The holds we were using for our tools (which you can easily see in Snyder's pictures) would be impossible to use with bare hands. We search out the smallest (MUCH smaller than finger width) cracks to place our tools. When a good hand hold is presented, we would use our gloved hands (why wouldn't you?) instead of tools. A strictly rock climber does not understand dry tooling enough to comprehend these minute differences between possible hold and climbing tactics. I suppose if I was grossly misinformed, I too would think that tools could damage the same holds used by rock climbers. ...


I am not AT ALL interested in getting in the middle of this, but would like for someone who is experienced with using tools on rock to verify if the assertions made in this post are accurate. I had always heard that dry-tooling damages rock and that one should not use tools on established routes. Is this incorrect? Is it now "cool" to dry-tool on established routes, as long as you are careful?

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By Adam Burch
From San Dieger
Feb 21, 2014
you local?
This thread is amazing.

I'm starting today - I will find a way to remove people from the climbing equation, because they are ruining it.

Hilarious.

FLAG
By Allen Sanderson
From Oootah
Feb 21, 2014
Stairway To Heaven - all the way to the Pearly Gates <br />(i.e. 10 pitches to the tram station)
NC Rock Climber wrote:
I am not AT ALL interested in getting in the middle of this, but would like for someone who is experienced with using tools on rock to verify if the assertions made in this post are accurate. I had always heard that dry-tooling damages rock and that one should not use tools on established routes. Is this incorrect? Is it now "cool" to dry-tool on established routes, as long as you are careful?


At least in Wasatch the general etiquette is that in general folks do not dry tool on established rock routes because of the potential for damage. It seems like that some time ago some folks did dry tool some established routes and were politely asked not to do so in the future. However, some of the rock routes on occasion form up with ice.

That said the ice climbing around here also has many dry tool routes and in general the rock is limestone. Much which is of poor quality and dirty. As such, no one rock climbs on it. In another are there is some good limestone with rock and ice routes. In fact, I put up a rock route with the intention that the bolts would be used in the winter for an ice route that I also put up.

During the winter Maple Canyon has some very nice ice climbs. One can see where as there are black streaks on the walls. Some of the climbs can be thin and often the bolts from the rock climbs get clipped. I am sure more than once a dry tool move has made. I personally have not heard of any complaints.

So in general rock only routes do not get dry tooled. If there is potential for ice on the route they will get dry tooled.

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By The Blueprint Part Dank
From FEMA Region VIII
Feb 21, 2014
Peyton Reacts to Joan Lee
In Boulder canyon we call that route development

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By Mike Snyder
Administrator
Feb 21, 2014
Brock Smith,

1. Anyone with half a brain knows that metal tools are not going to permanently scar granite rock. If this was sandstone, limestone, or dolomite this would have been a different story. Since every party involved is also a sport climber we could understand the concern and we voiced this. First immediately after Mike Snyder "voiced his opinion on rock climbing ethics" we removed our crampons and were climbing in only alpine boots (as pictured). Second if you know anything about ice tools, it is not easy to use the same holds you would use sport climbing with your hands. The holds we were using for our tools (which you can easily see in Snyder's pictures) would be impossible to use with bare hands. We search out the smallest (MUCH smaller than finger width) cracks to place our tools. When a good hand hold is presented, we would use our gloved hands (why wouldn't you?) instead of tools. A strictly rock climber does not understand dry tooling enough to comprehend these minute differences between possible hold and climbing tactics. I suppose if I was grossly misinformed, I too would think that tools could damage the same holds used by rock climbers.

This is exactly what Im getting at. You were in crampons and ice tools the first time I saw you, climbing on established rock routes. The fact that you had removed them later shows your own feelings of guilt. Tools and crampons do in fact leave traces on rock, scars & scrapes are evidence of this. I have not ice climbed in over a decade but climbed extensively in the Southfork in the 90's and even helped author several climbs there. The point of this rebuttal is that ice tools and crampons should have been left in the car during the guided instruction at the Island on the days in question.

2. Mike Snyder, the man who felt he alone had the "authority" to tell people what type of climbing is acceptable on public land, was present at the Cody Ice Climbing Festival Saturday 2/15 when it was declared (multiple times) that we would meet at "the island" for dry tooling the next morning. He obviously decided not to speak up and tell people that he thought this was wrong, which is what a normal man would have done. Instead he hiked out and started a confrontation with the climbers at the area the next morning, which did not go at all the way he explained. Mike Snyder was very rude, pretentious, condescending, and self entitled. Luckily the guide named earlier in this forum was able to defuse the situation despite Snyder's standoffish attitude. This guide did an outstanding job, he has been my guide at other ice festivals and will be a guide for several of my future endeavors guaranteed, I strongly recommend him.

I did explain respectfully when I asked the guide and the clients to cease and desist, that I had no authority to make them stop their activity. I did attempt to appeal to both on ethical and moral grounds that their activity was potentially harmful and set a poor precedent. I did speak to guides at the event on Saturday night and asked pointed questions regarding the days classes. I was somewhat mislead and after a call from a concerned local climber on Sunday morning went to check it out for myself. I have been assured that this guide will not be teaching this kind of class in Cody at The Island under Don in the future, so please don't try to book an advanced dry tooling class with him.

3. Mike Snyder explicitly told us that he has authority over this climbing area since he was the first man to deface the granite by and I quote "drilling bolt holes, scraping and brushing off the lichen and other plant life on the rock, and using a crowbar to dislodge loose rocks from the routes." Since Mike Snyder was the first to deface these rocks, he is the sole decision maker of who gets to use these rocks and what kind of climbing they can use them for. After telling us this Mike Snyder had the grit to start a "climbing ethics" discussion, he went on to tell us that what we were doing was "unethical". Apparently in Mike Snyder's mind, defacing a rock by drilling holes in it, brushing and scraping native plants off of it, and using a crowbar to pry off pieces of rock, as well as using chalk on it, all while using "from the top down" route placing, is a grey line which he can cross whenever he pleases. Yet using ice climbing tools on the rock is a dark black line that cannot be crossed, at least as long as he "owns" this rock

I claimed no such authority or ownership and have always followed the ethic established by those who came before me when developing routes at the Island. I was certainly not the first to develop routes there nor did I make this claim. You as an enthusiast and follower have an obligation to follow this ethic as well which you chose to ignore.

5. Let it be known that normally I or any other party involved in this group wouldn't do this type of thing normally (i.e. taking ice tools to dry tool at a local crag). I am an avid rock climber and will free climb 99% of the time. This isn't becoming an epidemic like Mike Snyder might make it sound because generally climbers rock climb in the warm months and ice climb in the cold months. We were dry tooling this particular day because we had the tools as demo gear and wanted to learn and practice some vital alpine skills instead of sitting in a hotel room all day. I can personally guarantee that no climber will ever notice that people were dry tooling at "their crag".

There is no defensible excuse for dry tooling at an established rock climbing area, period. People will notice trust me.

I feel bad that Don Foote and the Cody Ice Climbing Festival are catching the flak for this. This man has organized the greatest ice climbing festival in the northern rockies, especially for beginners with the incredibly low guide to client ratio in his clinics. And this festival which was organized by Don Foote is DIRECTLY responsible for my passion for rock and ice climbing which has become such a major part of my life.

I am happy that the CICF has had a positive impact on your development and motivation as a climber. That IS a good thing. However the instruction you received at this Festival is what is being called into question. I urge you to reevaluate your stance on this.
I think it was comment number 4, that has since been removed, you had said that being from Casper and having Fremont Canyon as your local granite area you felt you could go there and dry tool. Please contact local activists Micah and Colby to join you on this momentus day as you bring dry tooling to this historic area. Im sure they would love to join you.

Thanks Mike Snyder for posting my FIRST EVER picture on mountain project as a negative without any sort of consent from myself. I have a far better criminal case against you for this gross act of negligence than you do against any of the parties responsible for whatever you are saying happened. You should be ASHAMED.

Lastly, the photo of you was removed because it showed your face and you in the act of vandalizing with ice tools a route I established in 1994. I understand I did not receive your consent (which I did not need), I do have one of you with out the guilty face. May I use that one? You could post one of your own photos from the day as well since you have made a rousing defense of your actions.

FLAG
By jleining
Feb 21, 2014
I love "white people" problems... You all are debating the "impact" of using ice tools on an established rock climb. Of all the impacts associated with these rock climbs, these scratches are insignificant.

FLAG
By Jan Roestel
Feb 21, 2014
NC Rock Climber wrote:
I am not AT ALL interested in getting in the middle of this, but would like for someone who is experienced with using tools on rock to verify if the assertions made in this post are accurate. I had always heard that dry-tooling damages rock and that one should not use tools on established routes. Is this incorrect? Is it now "cool" to dry-tool on established routes, as long as you are careful?


Granite will be harmed by metal tools. Go to Hyalite Canyon, Vail, Ouray, RMNP, or even Yosemite (from pitons) and you will see this climber created wear. As a climber I try to minimize the impact of my climbing, however this doesn't mean I do not mix climb, it only means I do it where it is accepted by the 'community'.
An individual climber's as well as a particular climbing community's perspectives naturally shift over time. Sometimes they merge, other times they diverge.

I would say that a majority of climbing areas adhere to the "do not drytool routes that were established as rock climbs." Most ice climbing guidebooks will have this statement in the intro section.
Somewhere like Maple Canyon where you have actual ice flows next to rock climbs plays on a variation of this guideline. If someone started drytooling Fremont Canyon, Vedauwoo, or the SD Needles...

Big bummer that a guide decided to do take a group of 'mixed' climbers inching to get their scratch on to an existing rock climbing area.

Also a bummer that the Ice Festival had issues with their permit.

Leave route development discussions off the intardwebs, too many variables to discuss outside of specific context.

Mike's photos say a lot.

I will not be blacklisting any of the sponsors due to the actions of a few. I will write the sponsors making them aware of these actions so they will be encouraged to put their weight behind making sure they don't happen again in the future.

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By RobC2
Feb 22, 2014
This..
Mike Snyder wrote:


What message is this 9-year old kid taking away from your class, Don?
Submitted By: Mike Snyder on Feb 20, 2014

That dry-tooling be some dank sh*t.

Crush it little brutha!

FLAG
 
By Brock Smith
Feb 23, 2014
This is my favorite!
Whoops, I forgot to "scratch the granite" on this one!
Whoops, I forgot to "scratch the granite" on this one!



This is definitely "scratching" up a free climbing handhold!  if you have millimeter wide fingers. <br />
This is definitely "scratching" up a free climbing handhold! if you have millimeter wide fingers.

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By Brock Smith
Feb 23, 2014
This is my favorite!
Here's a HQ photo for you!

britannica.com/EBchecked/topic...

The granite at the island falls somewhere between 6 and 7 on the mohs hardness scale which is the standard for measuring the hardness of minerals, if you look at this link it shows that steel does not scratch a mineral with of this hardness. Sorry to prove you wrong with science but that is what educated people do.

This being said I promise that I will never be dry tooling any established rock routes again obviously, although I didn't plan on it as I posted earlier. My earlier post about fremont canyon and the rushmore needles was more about comparing the rock quality of this area to more well know crags than to say "I was going to go dry tool them" as Snyder made it sound. Also Mike Snyder is blatantly lying about how he handled the situation that day. I was there and I understand completely why he would have lied about his actions, Snyder's arrogance and self entitlement has caused me to completely lose respect for him and his causes. My original post was only meant to give the perspective of someone who was actually there, that is all. We all understood and accepted Snyder's arguments, however; unlike he says on this forum, he told us the decision to leave was ours, our guide (which I resent Snyder's attempt to defame this outstanding professional) was somehow able to calm Snyder and told us that if Snyder had actually asked us to leave, we would have which I completely understand. The bottom line is that Mike Snyder is attempting to blow this entire situation completely out of proportions for whatever reasons (most likely so that he can get off on seeing his name online).
This is my favorite!
This is my favorite!

FLAG


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