Gang,
When using a device in guide mode it really helps to use a smooth round stock carabiner. There are only 2 that I know of the Petzl Attache and the Trango Mini HMS. The forged shapes in most 'biners will make it tough to pull rope through.

JL, are you advocating doubling up on the blocking carabiners to make it run smoother? Dude, you're playing with fire there, not to mention that you're playing with your second's life.. I know of no manufacturer, including us, that would say this is safe, let alone appropriate.
Mal

Malcolm,
the reverso looks to be the same as a stich plate.
Am I correct in that theory?

Linda,
I'm not sure what you mean. A Reverso and a Stitch plate are waaaaay different. Are referring to how a Stitch plate can be made to feed smoother by adding a second 'biner into the rope loop?" This is a common trick with many tube style devices and it works well with all of the symmetrical devices I've tried. Don't know how it works with the Reverso, though. Further to my post, the mechanics of what is going in in the regular belay/rappel configuration vs. what's going in with an autoblock are not even remotely the same. Just because doubling up carabiners with a regular belay device makes it feed smoother while still affording a solid lock off does not imply that it will do either with an autoblock. It may work and it may not. I haven't tested it.
Mal

saxfiend, I don't know if it's dangerous or not. That's why I've saying he's playing with fire. I know of no tests where someone's actually pulled an autoblock to failure with 2 blocking 'biners. I know we haven't...

It may work. And it may not.

Mal

Hey Mal-

My partner's reverso was rigged up correctly in the incident I described above. His pulling down on the brake strand to arrest my fall rotated the device enough that the sharp edge on the load strand side of the device was in more direct contact with the rope and easily sharp enough to cut it. I 've heard folks sometimes file down that razor sharp edge after it forms, but I don't particularly like climbing with a knife on my harness or a knife attached to my climbing rope!

Wild story Eli. I'm going to have to fiddle around a bit with one to see how that could happen. I have seen several cut ropes from people's mis-threaded Reversos but that's just a matter of not paying attention.

Further to your post way up-thread that you haven't had to lower anyone from an autobloc, you better polish up those techniques if you go climbing with me. I've had to be lowered twice in the last 18 months and both times it's been epic even though the belayer swore proficiency.

Mal--I still like the munter--Daly

I guess a wart will always offend my sense of aesthetics. Notwithstanding her current situation can you imagine what her public draw would be if she looked like this?

Joking aside, the ways I've seen the autoblock being used combined with the cavilier attitudes people have about how easy it is to lower someone, tell me that it's only a matter of time before there's someone hanging below the Rosy roof locked into an autoblock that the belayer has no ability to release. I've been somewhat stranded, hanging on the rope waiting to be lowered, twice in the last year by belayers who SWORE they knew exactly what they were doing.

So what's so bad about the Munter that people are chasing autoblocking like lemmings? Don't tell me that it's because you can take your hand off the rope. I don't want the belayer to take their hand off the rope, ever. Two climbers at one? You can do the same with Munters and be able to easily bring in rope on one and lower out on the other at the same time.

Mal - I say the autoblocking is just easier working with either 1 or 2 seconds & doesn't twist the rope.

I dig the munter, too - but if one second hangs, it's hard to keep managing the other climber. I guess I could set up friction hitches to back up the brake hand, but I've not yet done it; or just tie in both to the same strand using a butterfly at a shortened interval.

I dunno, I'd like to keep the autoblock as an option, I think it's cleaner when keeping the climbers on independent strands.


I've practiced & practiced & practiced using the reverso with a second fully on it; I've got the pulley down so slick, it's hard to beat me on the buddy evac systems; course, this one is easy. The hard one is picking off my f'n leader that's a dead elephant.

I love to keep the AB as an option, too, and I love having the emergency ascender option as well. That's why I like my B-52: it can do everything and it has a clear complexion.
Mal

BTW, when running munters for 2 secoinds, use 2 HMS at slightly different extensions. Works like a charm.

I finally borrowed my partner's atc guide, and what can i say ... we got down from the crag and i ran to the climbing store and got one. This is the first belay/rap doodad i've ever used that i really like (in my closet you'll find a sticht plate, figure 8, bachli seilbremse, original atc, trango jaws, b-52, and god knows what else). This is the only thing that's provided plenty of friction on skinny ropes without sacrificing smoothness or ability to work with normal ropes (haven't tried fat ones).

I WANTED to love my B-52. I still love its light weight, sleek lines, and elegant simplicity. In contrast, the Guide looks like something forged in a fire pit by a caveman. Its weight suggests stone age origins too ... 50% more than the B-52.

But the first time down on a pair of skinny half ropes, using my autoblock for backup (rather than added friction, to help me hang on for dear life) was a revelation. I'm on the big side for climbers (190) but that should be within the working range of any device, I'd think. The B-52's claims of providing increased friction on skinny ropes seem utterly fictional. My partner (180 lbs) wanted to kill me after he rapped on it with the skinny doubles.

For what it's worth, I like the reverso even less. It autoblocks fine, but provides so little friction on medium to skinny ropes that I won't even use it.

I find the Guide easier to use in autoblock mode than others I've tried. Not sure yet how big an improvement the little ring is for releasing. I'll have to hang someone from the ceiling and play with it. I do appreciate being able to use just one biner to hang it with double ropes. On paper that seemed like a minor deal with the B52, but in practice I found it annoying. It added time at most belays, since I usually climb with a pretty minimalist setup. Having to poach biners from the rack to find two same-sized ones is one extra thing I don't want to think about.

AND ... in defense of autoblocks in general: I think they're overrated for use by guides, but are brilliant for use with experienced partners. I'd rather use a munter hitch (or 2) if i thought there was much chance of having to lower someone. The autoblock comes into its own when you're tring to move fast on multipitch climbs. If you both have one, you can fly. It's also the only way to go if you have a party of 3.

I wish there was a way to fuse the performance of the Guide with with the minimalism and light weight of the B52. But until that happens, I'll eat my wheaties and hoist this thing up with me.

My Guide is showing some wear after most a season of use. The teeth are noticeably worn. The leader side has also gone from round to straight, and is getting a little edge. But all gear gets worn down. For rappelling on skinny ropes, belaying on 10.3 rope, and bringing up a second with hands free for taking pictures, it rocks! I'll definitely get another.

Rob Dillon, how did you get a Neutrino in the release hole? I've been fiddling with it, and all that makes it in is the nose of the biner. A CAMP Nano just barely makes it in.

Hi Zack,

[Begin - partial quote from Zack - I can't get the quote function to work]

"..... Anyway, my new atc guide really sucks for belaying a leader. Too often the rope pulls the device into the biner and locks up the rope. I can pull the rope through the device, but with lots of effort. if the climber needed a quick feed for a despate clip I'd feel more comfortable with an 11.5 mm rope in a gri gri. About 20 -30 times per belay i pull the device away from the biner so the rope will feed smoothly .........Is anyone else finding it difficult to feed rope through the atc guide? any ideas?"

[End - partial quote from Zack.]

I also had similar problems with my ATC Guide - on a new but broken in 10.2mm rope this Summer. I felt that belaying my good buddy with the inability to make quick feeds to be real bad Karma and not so good for his head either.

I did not experience this with my ATC-XP on the same rope. It was because I liked the ATC-XP so much that I picked up the ATC Guide for either myself or my wife - depending on the situation.

Well, I went back to the ATC-XP which works very smoothly with this 10.2mm rope.

Perhaps it's the added mass of the Guide version which causes it to drop down and bind up? I haven't held the two versions side by side, nor have I pulled out my calipers to measure the spacing and other critical dimensions on the two variants of this device.

Flash forward to my recent purchase of a pair of 8.1mm PMI Verglas ropes. These ropes are "wicked slick" for the first couple hundred feet of climbing and scared the living daylights out both of us. After these first couple hundred feet of climbing, they lost their "sheen", and I think we're going to love them.

For my first rappel on these ropes last Saturday, I decided to use my ATC-XP in friction mode and it was more than enough to the point of making me nervous - with a stick/slip action. We were rapping off of bolts, but it was not the kind of smoothness that I like to impart on any protection that my life depends on. I'll play with rapping off of the low friction side of the ATC-XP next.

I decided to pick up a Reversino this week, but have yet try it. I'll report back.

I have a couple of questions about the "V" slots on both the XP and the Guide versions of the ATC. From my sticky rappel experience with the ATC-XP and the 8.1mm Verglas doubles, it would appear that any insecurity about them holding a leader fall with these ropes is imaginary - that the dynamic of the rope getting "sucked" down into the grooves is fine with the average 8.1mm rope.

I realize that BD reports you can use the ATC-XP and Guide with as thin as a 7.7mm pair, but then again, people used to consider a hip belay to be adequate too.

I also have a question about the Reverso/Reversiono.

Petzel recommends that you always use them with a directional anchor - whether:

• belaying the leader - diagram 2 on page 2 of their instructions

• belaying the second - diagram 4 on page 3 of their instructions

if you like the reversino, buy more than one. its going bye-bye this spring when the new Reverso 3 comes out (which looks alot like the ATC-Guide).

as to your friction problem, thats pretty weird, considering the Guide has 30% less friction than the XP. I tested my guide on ropes varying from 7.7 twins to 10.5 gym ropes (OLD gym ropes) in both regular and autoblock modes and i never had any problems feeding the rope (although stuffing the thicker ropes in the device could be a pain).

all of that said, i've stopped using anything thicker than 9.8mm- there's just no reason to anymore. i've got a Sterling 9.8mm thats holding up better than any 10mm or bigger rope i've ever owned. and the ATC-Guide LOVES my Sterling Velocity!

I just bought the ATC Guide this summer and used it for the first time while guiding with thicker ropes and was surprised at how poorly it fed. We got rained out and went into the gym and the fat, stiff gym cords barely worked there was so much friction. It works great with newer 10.5 or thinner ropes, though. But for 11mm or older 10.5 that have become thicker with use I wouldn't recommend using the ATC Guide.

Hi vegastradguy,

I have three devices that I use as the situation requires:

• A Trango B-52: for fatter ropes, when I want less friction for rappelling or giving quick clip slack to a leader.

• A Black Diamond ATC-Guide: for skinnier ropes, when I want more friction for rappelling. Also for bringing up two seconds simultaneously in auto-block mode.

• A Trango Cinch: for belaying sport leads, and bringing up a second while belaying directly off the anchor. Very easy to lower the second even if they are hanging on the rope.

Hi Ron, all ...

This years BD guide has a sticky feed compared to the one that came out last year. My guess... the new ones are made in China. :-)