cmon, Jake, at least a little extra credit for coming up with 2 examples on the fly??

Yea, your gri-gri pic is the setup, the problem is the reaction to grab.

The practice I got to get away from grab & holding is to work with the slip, slap, & slide method which transitions into the gri-gri to be dynamic, the belayer just need to be skilled in not locking off & slide their hands. In doing this, "when the lead climber weights the rope", it does not matter as long as the belayer controls the feed and then moves into the lock-off. It's advanced and needs to be practiced.


It's not the fall distance that is an issue with the dynamic belay using whatever device. So what if the lead climber goes 20' until a soft catch is made? It's impact force & duration on the protection that I think matters more. Certainly though the belayer has to recognize fall hazards the lead climber could hit.

I think most people who belay leaders with a Gri-gri strip slack through the device as described by Eric. Page 7, 3c of the Gri-gri instruction manual seems to describe this technique as an acceptable method of feeding out rope rapidly, so it's not clear to me that Eric was misusing the device, or that what he was doing was "contrary to the directions."

I like Gri-gri's, but they certainly seem to take more technique and practice than a regular belay device.

Neil C.-
Thanks, you are correct. I forgot the (1/2) part in the equation so I will edit my original post.

Thanks for the streaming education. I saw the last photo by Jake and the limits of that technique. The brake hand remains off the rope when you cup the device with either hand. Petzl specifically shows you not to do this in Fig.3A (left hand in this case holds the device)

I have mixed feelings about this thread. On the one hand, it is useful to discuss what's safe and what isn't. On the other hand, maybe we're overthinking this.

A Gri Gri is a tool and like all tools, it has limitations. The Gri Gri doesn't cause accidents; people who do not know how to use the Gri Gri cause accidents.

I also think there is a danger in using the Petzl information as law. These product manuals are directed at the entire population of Gri Gri users, and as such, they do not assume that the user has common sense or a working understanding of the device. If you have both of these things, take some time, play around with the device, and find out what works for you.

As for turning a Gri Gri into an ATC, I use a Gri Gri for a reason: it's not an ATC. Using an ATC violates one of the cornerstones of my life: Work smarter not harder.

Hi all,

Just to repeat what a bunch of you have said before (paraphrasing): Belaying is a skill that needs to be learned, this includes the proper use of the devices used.

Now, a problem occurs when producers of belay devices include instructions that are perceived as impractical. As an example, most people I see do not lead belay with the Grigri as shown in the Petzl instructions.

The Swiss Alpine Club published the following article in their publication "Die Alpen":
http://alpen.sac-cas.ch/html_d/archiv/2004/200403/ad_2004_03>>>>>

For those who cannot read German:
In this article the use of among others the Grigri is discussed. Figure 9 (Abb. 9) shows the proposed method of feeding out rope while lead belaying.

The same way is shown as correct in
http://195.248.137.247/service/downloads/info_klettersport/S>>>>>
another climbing/mountaineering safety oriented publication.

The point of this method is to control the cam with your thumb while still keeping the brake hand on the rope! Also, the thumb tends to slip off the cam when a fall occurs allowing the cam to engage (however, you should not count on this...).

The author, Walter Britschgi, is the proponent of what he calls the "three-leg-logic" requirements of safe belaying: brake hand principle, braking mechanics, and reflexes. These include

• at least one hand on the brake strand of the rope at all times

• taking into account the (braking) mechanics of belay device

• belay devices should not require use, or be used, in such a way that is counter to human emergency reflexes (an example of such a reflex is the tightening of grip of whatever you are holding at the moment of a sudden emergency/scare. Holding the Grigri cam open with your left hand while pulling rope with your right is an example of such a use).

I think point 3 is the crucial one..."belay devices should not require use, or be used, in such a way that is counter to human emergency reflexes". I think at least half of grigri problems are due to violating this point.

It seems to me that it's the desire for lots of rope quickly (without being short-roped) that contributes to the problem. Leaders can help to minimize this by: warning the belayer ("clip !"), smooth relaxed rope-pulling, delaying clipping until the draw is nearer to your waist. And if you get short-roped once in a while, hey chill, it's better than being dropped. Belayers can leave a bit of slack in the system. On sport routes it's generally not a problem.

I basically agree with my old buddy John Hayes...ATCs are simple and their use is straight-forward. I like 'em.

The safest belay is an out-riggered body belay. Totally fool-proof. But you can't feed rope fast enough for sport-climbing.

I like to belay with a gri-gri. I see lots of people belaying incorrectly with them (ie. no brake hand).

I think the main problem is that the gri-gri is designed for ropes of 11mm-10mm. Most people are running smaller ropes. 9.something. I test each rope I use in a gri-gri by giving if a tug to see if it locks up. Ropes seem to have a perfect gri-gri size. Too big and you have to squeeze the lever all the time and pull hard to get the rope through the device. At least it locks up, but I think this gives people the idea they don't have to hold the brake hand on the rope. Too small and the gri-gri never locks up. Scary! New ropes and small ropes are dangerous in the gri-gri. my girlfriend 9.5 mammot is small enough that you can feed without ever squeezing the cam and can lower the climber without the pulling the lever. DANGER

This is a wicked old thread, but I'll put my .02 in. When I worked @ Killington in 2000 I was the only climber there so when summer came I was the designated belay slave on the climbing wall. It was nice, I always had a work in progress on the wall for myself and it was my first experience with the coveted grigri. I actually found some practicality with the device. I used it to self belay on tr (not reccomended but I had no issues w/ it), I belayed a lot of fat people with one. All in all I found it to be a very useful device. After about two weeks I started using my ATC b/c when you belay all day the friction of pulling a rope through a grigri vs. an ATC is day and night.

A good friend of mine who climbs A5 swears by his grigri, he is no joke and has clout in the community, it's all he will use. That is testimonial, seeing that A5 is typically 1/2 a mistake away from disaster.

I have spent years working in shops also and I testify with all my confidence that Petzl's safety standards exceed every other climbing equipment manufacturers! Every device they make is individually tested. It costs a bit more than most competitors but it is worth it. I personally prefer BD equipment seeing that it is made in the US and not subject to the taxes that a European product goes through. Plus I trust any company that Yvon has had his hands in.

Some good additions to the thread. Daniel I don't think the issue here is with the gri-gri itself, I see the issue more on how it is (mis)used and the inexperience of the user for an advanced application.


In the sport & trad application, certainly "top-rope" lead clipping is a concern, this is a tough one to gauge for a belayer and still try and introduce a dynamic belay no matter what device is being used. I would put the fall-risk on the lead climber for this situation.

There's at least 50 lbs. weight difference between one of my climbing buddies and I, so he uses this funky Petzl carabiner with his grigri when we're at the gym or sport climbing:

GRI GRI'S AND CINCHES ARE NOT HANDS FREE DEVICES!!! They never were and should never be taught that they are. Too many gym climbers have conceived this concept and it is very dangerous. They require proper belay technique and should be used by competent belayers with good technique. DO NOT give the gri gri or cinch to a beginner or bad belayer, this will teach them bad habits for life and they should be taught how to belay properlly with a standard device. If they are a poor belayers, back them up, there are many methods for back up.

-back up belayer, extra hands on the brake side while coaching
-catasrophe knots, tie a knot every 15 feet or so, kind of tedious, but very effective.
-Back up the lower, I almost always add an autoblock to my leg loop while lowering with one of these devices, it takes about 15 seconds to rig and saves my hand and gives me so much more control

Saw this on supertaco and I think it helps clarify the technique we have used with success. Go easy, step lightly, stay free


http://en.petzl.com/petzl/frontoffice/Sport/static/services/>>>>>