So let me get this straight. Is it poor form while lead belaying with a grigri to slide the brake hand up to the cam to pull rope even if the brake hand and thumb are wrapped around the device ready to slide back down around the rope if a fall takes place? Because that is the technique that i use and have seen used by many advanced climbers and i have never had a problem or any sort of close call. Also, i only use a grigri to lead belay when i can see the leader. Do i need to reform or is this the standard safe practice?

Wow, and I thought I was a puss.

Whenever I take a beginner, I always throw on the gri gri, and basically tell them not to do anything. It is almost idiot proof unless they start messing around with it. If they just don't touch the damn thing, the grigri will be fine. If I whip, the jolt that their body takes as they slam into the rock will give me enough dynamic action.

You guys would rather give someone an ATC and say, "never take your hand off of the rope" ? yeah, sure...

If you have a real beginner, and you don't want to take the time to teach them how to belay, slap on a gri gri and call it good.

For the record, I don't see what the big deal is for the occasional hand off of the grigri move to eat, take photos, drink, etc.... but that's just me.

Dane, I would say that what you are describing is the manufacturer's intent for the device. It works really well if you are experienced with catching leaders falls dynamically.

The problem that Tony pointed out was the involuntary reaction of a person which is to grab.

You & I have probably patterned this to get away from the involuntary reaction so we can give our leader a soft-catch, a dynamic belay. What we do is more like feed, slide, & grab - which I developed/learned by starting from the slip, slap, & slide method of a conventional device & TR'ing.

When someone who just uses the gri-gri device for TR'ing they more than likely will just lock-off or let go. But then taking this to a lead fall situation, it could pattern into grabbing the cam to feed rope, and hold it when a fall happens, then not slide the brake hand back off the cam. That's a problem.

Also, learning to let go is something I don't feel is a good way to belay a climber. Not one manufacturer of a belay device actually says it's OK to let go of the rope; even on the auto-mechanical configs of a Reverso, Guide, or similar, the manufacturer does indicate to keep a brake hand on the rope. Though what I have to do is let go for 2 seconding climbers, but I'm still working the strands.


John, not teaching someone how to belay? Why would you do that to somebody?

John, I think that there is a big difference in giving a beginner lead belayer a grigri vs a standard belay device. The grigri definitely takes more training and thought to use safely. But while TRing i think that giving a grigri to a beginner is not a bad idea with some basic instruction. Better to be a puss than a hardman in the dirt.

Dane,
I don't think I was making excuses. I definitely screwed up. It has happened twice in the many years (6-8?) and hundreds of lowers I have used a Gri Gri. I believe it happened because I am lowering people too fast and not watching for kinks. That has not happened when I am using an ATC or similar device perhaps because the hand gets hot. Perhaps someone out there has had the experience of a kink knocking their hand off of the rope while lowering someone with an ATC. I would like to hear about it but I don't blame you for not mentioning it here.

As far as dynamic belays go, I usually give a little hop. On a hanging belay that would be hard to do. I was TOLD many years ago by a friend that worked in the testing dept. for Edelweiss Ropes that after about ten meters the rope absorbs a ton of energy and a dynamic belay is not really necessary. That is my recollection so it may be wrong. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong about that. And thanks for all the helpful, thoughtful input.

Hey Malcolm,
I checked out the instructions (See Ron Olsen's post first page) and will try that method. Could you elaborate about the failures that make it necessary to clip into the belay loop to belay rather than the leg loops and harness belt? At the risk of inviting more wrath, probably deserved, I have never liked using the loop and don't. I like being attached to two things instead of just a single, very strong I know, loop. I can also pay out more slack if the biner is not attached to the loop. Another thing I like is the way the device lines up when it is through the harness rather than the loop. I really like my Cinch and bought it for the reasons you designed it. But, seeing first hand what can happen if used improperly, I promise I will only use it and my Gri Gri according to manufacturer's specs.

gri gris are retard proof......or so i thought.

IMO; Gri-Gri's are only good for top roped climb's. I believe that they should not be used for belaying a leader although I still do, but I ask the leader which device they prefer I use! 2 yrs. ago while being lowered I almost hit the ground from 40 Ft. up by someone that does not like ATC'S. Any device is only as good as the person using it. They don't have a stamp on the Gri-Gri for nothing.

WARNING: PROPER TRAINING IS ESSENTIAL BEFORE USE

PS." I believe the only way to quickly feed rope with a Gri-Gri for a leader is by holding the cam down." Not sure with the Cinch as I have not used one yet!

Eric. In my first post i was just clarifying to make sure my own technique is ok. In my second i was responding to John's last post not criticizing your technique or experience. In my last post I was also giving my two cents about beginners lead belaying with a grigri not calling you a beginner. Sorry for the confusion.

Eric,
Here's a link to pages on the UIAA website where there are articles on use. http://www.uiaa.ch/?c=312

There is one specifically that recommends not to use the tie-in points to attach a belay/rappel device because multiple incidences of failure. In most cases, the rigid stem of a Fig 8 caught on the locking collar of the belay 'biner and broke it. I don't think that there has been an incidence of a Grigri or Cinch doing this, but it is easy to see how it could be possible. There have been numerous incidences where a belay 'biner fixed in position but the tie-in points has stripped the sheath of the rope when it has gotten caught in the gate notch.

With the exception of Skinner's death there has never been a failure of a belay loop. In the case of Skinner's belay loop failure I think that it should really be attributed to stubbornness rather than equipment failure.

mal

For the sake of argument (I am talking about lead climbing here).

When you guys take out a beginner to belay you, deep down in your soul, do you really think that they are going to catch you if you fall? Maybe, maybe not. But I don't count on it, they are beginners obviously. They are not battle tested.

They probably will catch you, but don't tell me that you can't wait to fall off. You know it is going to be a semi tramatic experience for them. You climb differently, knowing that you really shouldn't fall if you can help it. Because they are beginners, you are either taking them up something easy on multipitch, or you are climbing to set up a toprope (again, probably on something easy.) So really, you aren't taking a complete beginner out to hangdog on your latest project are you? When you are climbing with a beginning belayer, the belay is really just so that you don't have to solo right? You aren't expecting or planning on falling. So if you agree with all of that. Isn't the device that will MOST likely hold a fall (if you happen to take one) a grigri? I mean, with a grigri, even if the person doesn't do anything, 98 percent of the time they are still going to hold the fall. With an ATC I don't like the odds. With beginners, I don't plan on falling anyway, but if I do I would much rather take my chances with the grigri than the ATC. To me it is a no brainer. I put the rope into the device, clip it to them, and climb.

This is climbing we are talking about right? There should be some risk and excitement. If you know that everything is going to be completely safe all of the time, then it becomes a mundane task, or exercise.

Mark, why not teach a beginner the finer points? Because I am talking about the occasional person who knows I climb and wants to try it once or twice in their life. You take them out to experience climbing, not to put them through the wringer and freak them out that they could screw up and cost you your life. Granted, that could always happen, but I like to get them climbing with as little stress as possible. Like I presumed earlier, you aren't taking beginners out so that they can belay you taking whippers. You are climbing the easy grades. By all means, and of course, if they want to climb again, or get into the sport, then teach away... but I try not to muddle their first experience with more stress, etc. than necessary.

If you really want to keep this post going and perhaps open up another can of worms, let's start a dialog about belaying the leader on traditional climbing routes using static belay devices.
I think this is a topic often overlooked, however, it's extremely important to really understand a few things about load dynamics in traditional climbing!

Be smart, be safe,

JF

OMG, this thread went bananas overnight!

I'm still partial to my GriGri and will continue to hold down the whammy bar to pay out rope quickly if needed (yes, brake hand still on the cord). But all this discussion will get me to really watch what other people are doing.

Mal, I'd like to see you use the Cinch. My ONLY experience with one was with Billy Russell as he was training a noob how to use it. And well, ahhh, I wasn't all that impressed with the ease of use for a newbie. So, can I play with your device next week? ;)

~Susan

Susan,
You can play with my device anytime. See you at SF07!
Mal

"For the record, I don't see what the big deal is for the occasional hand off of the grigri move to eat, take photos, drink, etc.... but that's just me."

WOW....at least someone isn't holier than thou and is being honest.

ps. eric....i too used to not like the way the gri gri hung from my harness off the belay loop. however....i have changed.
1. I don't need a new harness so fast because the leg loop connector is used half as much!
2. You get used to the way the belay device hangs.
3. you never have the problem malcolm describes with cross loading a biner (which is always stressful)

safe climbin' folks!

PSS. i hope people practicing safe belaying whilst "playing with each others devices"

If I were Malcolm, threads like this one would almost scare me out of business. But this is yet another display of stout stones in the face of overwhelming odds on the part of our man Daly. Some might consider him foolish and reckless, I say he is a man of considerable nerves and steel.

John G., a couple responses to your questions:
“You aren't taking a complete beginner out to hangdog on your latest project are you?”
---NO

“When you are climbing with a beginning belayer, the belay is really just so that you don't have to solo right?”
YES

“You aren't expecting or planning on falling. So if you agree with all of that. Isn't the device that will MOST likely hold a fall a grigri?”
---NO

“With a grigri, even if the person doesn't do anything, 98 percent of the time …”
---97.2% of statistics are made up on the spot, so the other 2.8% of actual statistics need references to the study.

… And here is my reasons why the grigri and cinch are NOT ideal for beginner belayers:

Most devices or equipment (think cars) have braking systems that the user must push, pull or otherwise engage. It would then be counterintuitive to RELESE something to activate a brake, such as in the case of a grigri or cinch. It would be more intuitive for a beginner to clench the rope, such as in the case of an ATC-style device, and all beginners I have talked to relay the same feelings. From a beginner’s perspective, they want to do something if you fall, not “do nothing”.

Also, since leading with a grigri or cinch requires the belayer to disengage the brake to pay out rope, the belayer’s hand is in a position, that if a fall were to happen, clenching the device could prevent it from engaging the brake.

If there were NO belayer on the other end of the rope, correct, I would want the device to be a grigri or cinch. I do use a grigri when aid-soloing.

A couple of my first hand experiences with the grigri and cinch:
I was dropped ~ 15 extra feet in a gym when the inexperienced belayer clenched the device during a fall.
A friend was dropped ~20-30 extra feet on a sport route when his inexperienced belayer did the same thing.
I watched a friend get dropped ~20 extra feet by his Experienced belayer, causing me to jump up from my seat and nearly grab the rope. The belayer’s shocked response was “What happened? Why didn’t it lock up?” He actually caught the fall with his bare hands on the rope above the device, preventing the device from locking up.
Also, I have witnessed 2 people getting dropped to the mat in the gym, both cases with the grigri (pre cinch era).
Luckily none of these falls resulted in injuries more serious than rope burns, bruises and scrapes.

I do frequently use both the gri gri and cinch, it is not that I am against them. I do think they are only for experienced belayers.

Yeah, good point Mark. We are all looking at different contexts here. If you were in a group situation, it would change. If you were taking people out who are beginning members of a mountain club, obviously, there is a different thing going on there. If you pick up some chick at the bar, you just want to set up a toprope as fast as possible so that you have a good excuse to stare at her ass, different context.

I was writing from my context, and can see how people in different settings could think that I am an idiot. But I am fine with that. I love using my grigri to solo, but oh no, it isn't made for that! The owners manual warns against it! Oh no! But oddly, it still catches my falls. But yeah, this is real life, accidents happen. What ever will be will be...

Casey, good points as well. I think the important thing is that we all take responsibility for our actions and are comfortable with our actions. If you are in a situation that you are uncomfortable with, make a change.

"cinch requires the belayer to disengage the brake to pay out rope, the belayer’s hand is in a position, that if a fall were to happen, clenching the device could prevent it from engaging the brake."

For the Cinch this is not true.. In both methods of lead belaying(original and revised edition put out last year) the brake hand is always on the rope, nothing is "disengaged" and the rope feeds smoothly.

I don't know about the gri gri since i've never lead belayed with one.. only TR.
pics upcoming (Mal you wanna make sure i got this right?)
New way


Old way

Healyje,
Thanks for the props but I'm just doing what anyone would do in this situation. We've got a great device, as does Petzl, and I'm just trying to be sure it doesn't get mis-used. I love this thread because it seem like most everyone gets it. I don't know what it is about this category of belay devices but for some reason there are people out there who feel that it's okay to ignore the instructions. I don't ever hear of anyone saying it's okay to place one of our cams all the way tipped out or that it's fine to not back thread a buckle on our harness. IT MAKES ME CRAZY!
Mal

Mal -

Camalot in passive position

Safe-Tec harness from Metolius

Mark.. Tipped out and placed passively are quite different in my opinion.. from the pictures on the C4 pdf sheet there are examples of both and are not the same.

the metolius buckle is specially designed.. same with the petzl harnesses that have the auto double back feature. that's not ignoring the instructions of the harness.


btw on the Cinch instructions: "The Cinch is not an automatic belay device and therfore requires constant monitoring. You MUST keep control of the brake side of the rope at all times." ie If you do the "just let go of everything" deal the climber could get effed up.

They may be similar but they are not the same. One main thing i've heard over the past few years is "don't treat it like a gri gri because you will drop someone" this is especially true with lowering.. the Cinch won't work with the handle wide open like a gri gri.. you must control the speed with the handle

Edit: Casey, I suppose you are right that you are disengaging it.. but much differently than the Gri gri cam push method.. in the event of a fall the rope pulls the Cinch into the correct position. You just have to squeeze the brake hand. With the Gri Gri you are holding the cam with the brake hand and feeding out rope with the other.
is what i usually see. no way you can get from the cam to the brake side before they weight the rope