This weekend a friend of mine who was being belayed with a Cinch hit the ground from 30 ft. up. The person belaying, when asked, said the belay device failed. After a conversation with this person I believe he threaded the rope through the device properly. This made me curious.

Now let me say that I have been a big fan of these devices. I use the Gri Gri on larger diameter ropes and the Cinch on new or smaller diameter ropes. I have used them for years and not had any problems. Twice while lowering people from routes with a Gri Gri, twists in the rope have actually caused me to lose my brake hand grip. The Gri Gri has caught the people both times. Had I been using a non mechanical device both of my friends might have hit the ground. Perhaps I should lower people more slowly and watch for kinks. Despite my preference for using these devices one thing has always bothered me. Contrary to the directions for both of these devices, I always grip them in a way that allows the rope to run free when I am feeding out rope to a leader that is clipping a draw. If a person falls, I slide my hand down the rope to brake, the same as I would if I was using an ATC or something similar. Of course, if for some reason I was to grip the device (a fairly natural reaction) and not move my hand down the rope I have always assumed that the force of the fall would still activate the device. This is not the case!

While climbing at New Wave wall today I came up with an experiment as I was lowering Jimbo. Half way down Holey Moley I had him pull on to the wall. I tied a knot in the rope about 10 feet from me as a backup. I then grasped the Cinch the way I would if I was paying out rope and asked him to lean back. My assumption was that after a few feet of rope ripping through the Cinch, the cam would activate and he would stop. He didn't. I actually reacted instinctively and stopped him about 10 inches before the knot would have. It was so fast I could not believe it. I also could not believe the cam did not engage and lock up. Once on the ground we did some experiments with the Gri Gri and the Cinch. With the rope through the Cinch and me holding it the same way I would if I was paying out rope, Jimbo began to yank hard on it. He would pull 4-5 feet out at a time and it would not lock. Later we tried the same thing with the Gri Gri. It did occaisionally lock but not always. In the first ground experiment, I held the Cinch as tight as I could to keep the rope running. In the last one with the Gri Gri, I used the lightest touch I could without dropping it and it still did not allow the cam to engage every time. If you use these devices I urge you to try this "on the ground" experiment so you can see how easy it is to hold the device in a way that allows rope to run free.

I understand that the instructions for these devices tell you not to use them the way I, and everyone I know, actually uses them. But as I said before, this is the only way to pay out rope efficiently when a person is clipping fast.

It appears that in critical situations, one instinctively grips.

I have a couple of recommendations at this time if you are going to use these devices in a manner contrary to the manufacturers instructions:

Try the ground level experiments so you understand how little pressure it takes to hold the device in a non-locking mode.

Practice sliding your brake hand down the rope the way you would if you were using an ATC or similar device.

Finally, let me say this, perhaps the design of these devices needs to be changed so that our natural reaction to hold tight will activate the cam action instead of disabling it.

I guess I'm a bit confused. Maybe I missed something but this is how I understand your post.

If you're handling the device in a matter that is actually holding down the whammy-bar (for lack of a better word) so that the camming action does not happen, why would you be surprised that rope would continue to feed on a fall or when lowering. If you hold it down you are not allowing the caming action to take place.

Duplicate you test and throw both hands up in the air. No brake hand on the rope, no holding down of the whammy bar and you'll get the device to lock up on its own. Skinny ropes may take few/several extra feet but it will catch (eventually).

With that, you could argue that even without your brake hand on the rope if you released the hand that keeping the cam for acting the device would in fact lock.

I almost exclusively use a GriGri, I'm not sure which year I stopped using an ATC but these days if I'm handed one....be prepared to be short roped. By the way, I (like you) hold down the lever when paying out rope for the leader so I'm interested in the test results.


~Susan

WARNING! Blatant stupidity and ineptitude causes accidents. In other news, rain is wet.

This weekend a friend of mine who was being belayed with a Cinch hit the ground from 30 ft. up. The person belaying, when asked, said the belay device failed.

----Very sorry to hear. Are they okay?

After a conversation with this person I believe he threaded the rope through the device properly. This made me curious. Now let me say that I have been a big fan of these devices. I use the Gri Gri on larger diameter ropes and the Cinch on new or smaller diameter ropes. I have used them for years and not had any problems. Twice while lowering people from routes with a Gri Gri, twists in the rope have actually caused me to lose my brake hand grip.

----That would be defined as "user error" - it's not the fault of the gri-gri that you had issues. Also, that paragraph is entirely contradictory - you've used them for years and never had problems, but you've had problems twice. Make up your mind.

The Gri Gri has caught the people both times. Had I been using a non mechanical device both of my friends might have hit the ground. Perhaps I should lower people more slowly and watch for kinks.

----Then the gri-gri did its job - it saved your climber when you screwed up. Perhaps you should practice belaying more, rather than blame the belay device. Lowering someone with a gri-gri is actually MORE difficult than with a standard device, because there's more to do and more to get wrong; in the hands of a novice, the gri-gri is a deadly weapon with the safety off. If you think that you would have dropped your friends if you were using a non-mechanical device, then you have NO business belaying ANYONE.

Despite my preference for using these devices one thing has always bothered me. Contrary to the directions for both of these devices, I always grip them in a way that allows the rope to run free when I am feeding out rope to a leader that is clipping a draw. If a person falls, I slide my hand down the rope to brake, the same as I would if I was using an ATC or something similar. Of course, if for some reason I was to grip the device (a fairly natural reaction) and not move my hand down the rope I have always assumed that the force of the fall would still activate the device. This is not the case!

----Emphasis mine. So, you clearly state that you feed the rope out in a manner that is not recommended BY THE DIRECTIONS INCLUDED WITH THE DEVICE. How on earth do you think these things work? If you hold the camming mechanism open, how the hell do you think it's going to close? Is the gri-gri supposed to know the situation? Nope - it's a mechanical thing with no intelligence. If you force it to not work, guess what - it's not going to work.

My assumption was that after a few feet of rope ripping through the Cinch, the cam would activate and he would stop. He didn't. I actually reacted instinctively and stopped him about 10 inches before the knot would have. It was so fast I could not believe it. I also could not believe the cam did not engage and lock up.

----It's well-known that a slow fall on both a Cinch and a Gri-gri will not always activate the camming mechanism; I believe that's also listed in their instructions. This is why it's important to never take your hand off the brake end of the rope - your counter-pressure provides the necessary impetus to activate the device. It's also why it's extraordinarily dangerous to 1) hold open the camming unit, because you need three hands to be safe (one to feed rope, one to hold open the device, and one to hold the brake end), and 2) give a gri-gri or Cinch to anyone who has not been adequately trained.

Once on the ground we did some experiments with the Gri Gri and the Cinch. With the rope through the Cinch and me holding it the same way I would if I was paying out rope, Jimbo began to yank hard on it. He would pull 4-5 feet out at a time and it would not lock. Later we tried the same thing with the Gri Gri. It did occaisionally lock but not always. In the first ground experiment, I held the Cinch as tight as I could to keep the rope running. In the last one with the Gri Gri, I used the lightest touch I could without dropping it and it still did not allow the cam to engage every time. If you use these devices I urge you to try this "on the ground" experiment so you can see how easy it is to hold the device in a way that allows rope to run free. I understand that the instructions for these devices tell you not to use them the way I, and everyone I know, actually uses them.

----Again, you admit to using them in a way that the instructions expressly suggest is inappropriate - and everyone you know does as well? I don't use it that way... why? Because it's bloody dangerous. You wonder why you're having issues, when you're using the device in a manner that is expressly not recommended?

But as I said before, this is the only way to pay out rope efficiently when a person is clipping fast.

----No, it isn't. I've never had a problem feeding out rope with a Gri-gri, and I would NEVER hold open the camming mechanism. Perhaps another way is to use a different belay device - one where you don't have to disable the device to make it work?

It appears that in critical situations, one instinctively grips. I have a couple of recommendations at this time if you are going to use these devices in a manner contrary to the manufacturers instructions: Try the ground level experiments so you understand how little pressure it takes to hold the device in a non-locking mode. Practice sliding your brake hand down the rope the way you would if you were using an ATC or similar device. Finally, let me say this, perhaps the design of these devices needs to be changed so that our natural reaction to hold tight will activate the cam action instead of disabling it.

----Bullshit. Holding tight TO THE ROPE does indeed activate the device. Holding the device OPEN, as you - and apparently everyone else, except me - do every time you use it, DISABLES the device and doesn't allow it to function.

----Learn how to use a gri-gri properly, correctly, and safely - don't say "oh, please change these devices because I keep screwing up when I use them".

T

Nice response Taino! Eric just as the title of your post states "Cinch and Gri Gri misuse causes accidents". The key word there is MISUSE, meaning user error or incompetence which in no way corresponds to the failure of the actual belay device. Do your climbing partners a favor and learn how to belay with whatever device you decide to use before you hurt or kill somebody.

Gri Gri never liked it and would never want to be belayed by anyone who uses one. When we climb we put our life in the hands of the belayer the last thing I want is for that person to get the idea that they are not responsible. Just my opinion but I get the impression that when someone uses such a device they relax and think oh the device will take care of everything. I can just sit here and enjoy myself daydreaming about whatever or chatting with whoever. Just my .02$

I think Eric's point is that misuse of the GriGri and Cinch are common, even among climbers who should know better.

It's important to know and follow the manufacturer's recommendations for any belay device. I have used the Cinch for a few years, and belay with it quite often on sport routes. It's very important to keep your brake hand on the rope to ensure that the device will lock up in the event of a leader fall. Removing your brake hand from the rope, and holding the device with your brake hand is a recipe for disaster.

Trango's instructions for proper use of the Cinch can be found here.

Petzl's instructions for proper use of the GriGri can be found here.

amen steve. i find it really annoying when people are flagrantly showing off that they are too cool to keep a hand on the rope with a gri-gri. if you are too lazy to take belaying seriously, you should do the world a favor and quit climbing. Knitting is more likely the activity that you are meant for.

Taino, I understand the instructions. I realize that any device that is used incorrectly can fail to hold a fall. I am NOT blaming the device. I said in the title that misuse causes accidents.

You are right. If I cannot use it correctly maybe I should switch to a different device. I am posting this stuff to help others and to let them know that the way I see most people using them is dangerous. Perhaps I am reading more into your post but your tone indicates that if we are not following the directions we are idiots. Your tone does not invalidate your points. It does make it harder to read them and it makes you sound pompous. Do you always drive the posted speed limit? It is dangerous to drive over the limit. But lots of people do. With the Gri Gri and Cinch people do, and I am just trying to make people aware that it is dangerous. As often happens, it takes an accident to put a light on a problem.

I would like to know how you feed rope out of a Gri Gri or Cinch quickly "when someone is making a desperate clip" or pulling large amounts of rope out at a time. I was never able to do it. Perhaps you could put a clip on You Tube for us to look watch.

As I think about it more, I realize I usually keep my thumb and index finger on the rope when I am paying out rope. This way I can slide it down as I do when using an ATC. This may be why I have never had an accident.

As far as the device being changed goes I think they should be. People are always looking at weaknesses in products and improving them. I think it would be great if a device was designed that would eliminate the ability to misuse the device and allow the user to feed rope more effectively than I or my friends can.

I guess I'm missing something here. I see Eric's point about trying to educate people. I see alot of dumbass shit with GriGris all the time.

Taino: your tone does make you look like a pompous ass. . . at least your first post(even though what you say is right on). I guess you're just annoyed, but take it easy on the guy. He's just trying to help.

If you look at the Petzl drawings in their directions, the image for feeding rope out suggests that you hold the brake hand (never let go of the brake hand. . . as Taino points out quite well). Still, it seems like the image suggests to hold down the "whammy bar" while also holding the rope with your brake hand and pulling sharply on the route to feed it to your desperately clipping partner.

So,the only difference is that in the Petzl image one shouldn't take your brake hand off the rope to hold down the whammy bar.

All that said, I had this guy in Potrero
chico show me a technique in which you loop the rope (like when you're lowering with the Gri Gri)while you are belaying the leader. This allows you to more easily maintain the brake hand, manipulate the lever, and feed rope. I can't really explain it in words, any one else know what I am talking about.

Last words. . .I agree that gri gris are really dangerous. They can be great in the right hands, but man some people freak me out when I see them at the crag and the gym.

Eric,

Thank you for the warning, and for the results of your ad hoc experiment.

Virtually everyone I know who uses a Gri-Gri to belay leaders (usually on sport climbs) uses the device in the manner you describe. I, myself, had trouble belaying leaders with it until I learned that I should have my brake hand in an orientation opposite to what I would use on a tubular device. Once I started holding my brake hand with the thumb away from the Gri-Gri, I found that I could feed rope sufficiently fast by sliding my hand up onto the device and cupping the cam in the disengaged position. I'm pretty sure that this is exactly the action you describe.

I can certainly feed rope slowly through the Gri-Gri using the manufacturer's instructions, but leaders almost always want to have the rope fed quickly. Moreover, an argument can be made that feeding the rope quickly is safer than feeding it slowly as it lessens the amount of time during which the clip can be "blown."

So it seems there is a trade-off in the safety that one must consider when belaying with these devices.

I would also like to point out that Gri-Gris can also fail when used to belay a second off the anchor if there is some obstruction which prevents the cam from engaging. From the amount of pressure you describe in your experiment (where Jimbo yanked the rope), it seems that it would not take much -- maybe a taught rope or sling -- to prevent this action. Certainly this can happen while the device is being used fully in compliance with Petzl's instructions.

I hope you are able to ignore those who seem to be senselessly attacking you. Again, thank you for sharing your results with us.

Bobby Hanson

On a related note, you can read James Garrett's account of his reverso cutting his second's rope here:

http://climbingalberta.com/v/northern_utah__idaho/wasatch_ic>>>>>

It is about halfway down the page.

"I would like to know how you feed rope out of a Gri Gri or Cinch quickly "when someone is making a desperate clip" or pulling large amounts of rope out at a time."

The Cinch makes it very easy to yard out slack when you are holding it properly as described in the instructions. brake hand palm up pinky and ring finger holding the Cinch in your palm.. rest of the fingers on the brake. pull out slack with non brake hand as fast as you can deliver it. I made the mistake of trying to hold it palm down the other night and it locks up quite often. Which is odd since my paper instructions are different than the ones online now. palms down might be the best for TR applications but for lead i think palm up works better.

I am not a huge Gri-Gri fan, probably because when I first learned to belay, my instructor implored us to learn how to properly belay using a tube type belay device (I learned with an ATC). When I belay with a Gri-Gri (and I never have used it to belay a leader as I do not feel comfortable doing so), I use it like an ATC (ie never letting go with my brake hand), and it works great in that application. I look at it like learning to drive a car...learn a manual transmission first, then it is easy to switch to the auto if you need to. But going the other way may be not as smooth. I do think the Gri-Gri adds an extra safety measure in the equation, but it is far from fool proof.

Taino,

Could you tell us how you really feel :) I'm with you. Climbing is not bowling "if you throw the ball in the gutter you just pick up another ball". It is imperative that people totally understand how to use the equipment. My greatest fear is that in small under resourced and financially burdened communities that has to pick up the broken pieces, it is easier for them just to close a climbing area than to keep spending thousands of dollars to rescue people. I would suggest to all climbers to join the American Alpine Club. Not only is this organization an excellent resource, your membership covers rescue insurance and is only $75.00 per year. A small price to pay. So if some clamshell drops his load at least it doesn't burden the climbing community. I just hope that the person does not land on me :)

I was at the scene of the accident that Eric describes. The climber who fell fractured vertebrae in his neck and may have broken some ribs. He was wearing a helmet which clearly saved his skull. This was a very serious fall and it is amazing that he wasn't more seriously injured. As it is, he will probably be out of action for many months. The belayer involved was familiar with the operation of the Cinch and still managed to use it incorrectly. The fall happened so fast that he was left wondering what the heck happened. All he could say was that, "The belay failed!" In my opinion, everyone should pay heed to Eric's warning. I think his experiment is a valid one and I personally have serious doubt about using these devices outside of a gym. Give me an ATC any day--they are simple and reliable.

First, I'd like to say: let's keep the sarcasm and hating to a minimum, guys. Anyone who used to be plugged into rockclimbing.com knows that it's mainly full of slagging and repetetive gumby questions. Let's keep all that off this site-I like this place and value it as a place to exchange ideas, not malice.

Second, I've never been a fan of the Grigri family of belay devices. I don't trust them as infallible and I'm convinced that they are counterintuitive in their use and that the correct method for belaying with them has not been yet popularized. These debates in the forums go on and on forever, with the chest-puft trads asserting their superiority, the boulderers sniffing that they're the only ones that dress well and REALLY pull hard, etc etc etc. The truth is that we would all benefit from having a more informed, safe climbing community, and to that end, I offer the benefit of my experience. I've been a professional belayer for a national sports store chain (using Grigris exclusively), and set routes at two gyms in the US, teaching beginners how to use all types of devices. I've logged more time belaying over the last five years than I have working a steady job, and I have developed a method for lead belaying with a Grigri that works very well for me and eliminates the "brake hand off to lock the device open when fast slack is needed" problem. I'm not all that computer-friendly, so I'm not drawing out everything, scanning it, and all that jazz. However, for anyone seriously interested in safety and how to most effectively protect their partner using the device, I will be happy to share my system on a personal basis. Contact me if you're interested through the site-if my system works for you, buy me a beer when you come to Vegas.

Hi Gang,
Lots of great thoughts and comments here. Thanks for posting. I just want to add a few thoughts. First, it seems like everyone on the thread pretty much agrees that Cinches and Grigris are not autolocking or automatic devices. I think the greatest disservice that has been done to the category has been the label of "automatic". What do you do when you think something's automatic? You turn off your brain.

Second, the OP was deliberately mis-using the device and he knew it. I'm not real sure what to say here other than to follow his subject title: If you mis-use the Cinch or Grigri it can be dangerous. We spent a lot of time in developing the Cinch trying to invent something that could feed slack quickly WHEN USED CORRECTLY. I think we got that.

Third, check out the current instructions and FAQs on our site. We revised them 18 months ago because because after a lot of feedback we found a better (faster) way to pay out slack while still keeping your hand on the brake strand. It takes a bit a practice but it works really, really well. I can't find anything wrong with it. Love to hear your thoughts.The original method (palm up, cradleing the Cinch) worked well but if the belayer got lazy (sitting down on a rock resting your forearm on your knee) it was possible to drop your climber.

To the moderator, Can you move this thread to Gearheads? I think more people will see it there.
thx,
Malcolm

Tony (Bubb) & I went back and forth on this similar issue a few months back.

I like the dynamic belay, alot. The gri-gri essentially takes this away if you don't take your brake hand off and slide your fingers up to the cam. The problem is the reaction of the belayer which is to grab.

Tony pointed out that he just wraps the hand to keep the brake hand solid, much like a bull rider. But this takes away the dynamic belay.

What I see is that if you follow the directions of the gri-gri, you slide your fingers up to the cam and give a dynamic soft-catch and also take energy away from the protection. The problem, again (I thought was very well put by Tony) is that the reaction is to grab & by the time you figure out that you have totally inhibited the cam, it's too late.

The gri-gri is really an advanced belay device, I like it, but it's not something a newbie should be belaying a lead climber with. As you guys have already mentioned it's misused, but inherent in the instructions is where the device leaves an inexperienced belayer into failing to properly catch a falling climber.

So why do the kids use it in gym, no problem? They just jump & fly up the wall, basically the belay is static but they are dynamic using movable counterweighting -- well you can't do this using anchors, you have to be dynamic with your hands and not lose control of the rope.

Colby, I'll see if I can find that discussion. Tony has been doing this method for as long as he's been climbing and hasn't failed to catch his partners.

I think our discussion was the argument of being dynamic or being static with the belay & whether or not it makes a difference if you use a dynamic rope. I think being totally dynamic is the way to go.

Belay Techniques

Here's a discussion of the incident which started the Belay discussion, which I feel was a case where the belayer did everything he could to do a catch, but the leader was just too runout in order for the belayer to effectively catch the falling climber:

Eldo Incident on Pilgrim

In follow up, the belayer did arrest the leader fall, it was not terminated by the harness tie-in point as previously believed. It was just that the leader had pushed a runout & off-route position to try and make it to the finish anchor and just didn't make it. The resulting leader fall was massive.

Rich Farnham also offers some good insight as to what MRA accredited teams offer to the climbing community.