I am at odds with Greg Barnes, who, on another thread posted this:

Hey Bill, my comments were directed towards the desert climates of the southwest, and specifically to the large fraction of FA folks who don't use stainless. I've had tons of arguments with people on this subject, and loads of FA folks just won't use stainless.

I completely agree that stainless bolts should always be used. It's just a fact of life that a good number of FA people can't afford stainless bolts, and don't use them.

The worst of all cases is non-stainless stud bolts, which are unfortunately very popular.

But, you are completely correct, no one should ever use non-stainless in wet climates like the NW.

Stainless stud bolts will rust eventually in the NW, and the corrosion will mostly be down in the hole.

If people are using stainless stud bolts in wet environments, please use 316ss as it will last longer than 304ss.

Greg

On the removal of old 5-pieces - I've pulled plenty in Yosemite, the east side, Red Rocks, and Joshua Tree. All are rusted down in the hole, and Yosemite is wet enough to see rust everywhere including the bolt head. I've never had problems unscrewing the old bolts, but the NW is a lot wetter for a lot more of the year.

So, to qualify my initial advice: if you're bolting in the desert SW, and you can't afford good stainless 5-piece or Triplex bolts, please use something that is removable in the future - namely not stud bolts. If you love stud bolts and insist on using them, please use 316ss.

Greg

I don't like studs because it's almost impossible remove them. If you screw up and place one in the wrong location, you can't easily pull & patch it. I rarely if ever use studs.

So Billco how do you remove stud bolts?
I have never had a problem replaceing rawls.
Sounds like operator error- Righty tighty- lefty loosy.

Sounds like the ones you had problems with were the plated steel rawls. That is why we use stainless steel. They tend to rust less.

Greg,
Nothing lasts forever. Climbers 30 years from now are going to be happy to have something to climb, they aren't going to be pissed about what bolt we chose. Those same climbers aren't going to assume that the bolts they are using should still be 100 percent bomber, that is part of the fun, the not knowing 30 years later.

I wrote this a couple of months ago:
It is climbing after all. Plus, if you spend anytime clipping old rusted SHORT 1/4 inch bolts in really shit sandstone, a 4 inch carbon bolt seems pretty damn bomber... and when you see how long those 1/4 inch by 1-1/2 inch last, again, it seems like 4 inch carbon bolts will do people fine for many years to come.

For example, I recently climbed Pale Fire on Moses, I aided most of it, but obviously people free it. They are taking falls on those old 1/4 inchers! I can't imagine free climbing above those things, but people do it. No one is retrobolting it... and what if someone did? I think people would be pissed.
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Believe it or not, people who clip a bolt, probably shouldn't be overly bothered by a patched hole six inches away, especially 30+ years in the future. People in glass houses and such.

I realize that your position with ASCA prompts you to make certain decisions. However, they are your decisions. It doesn't make you all knowing and all right. You are starting to sound like the bolt police. You are giving recommendations, but there are different view points out there. It is climbing, not an amusement park. Osha hasn't created bolting regulations yet...

And what did people do 40 years ago when no one was there to tell them what bolt to use and how to use it? Oh my.

In no way am I trying to diminish the work of the ASCA, however, I am tired of the ASCA claiming the high ground. Your work is appreciated. I am sorry if you don't like the work of non-ASCA members.

John, I do not think you are taking the time to actually READ Greg's posts before dissing him. His point is that if you are going to place a bolt, use one that is easily replaceable OR one that will last a while...Pretty easy idea.

Billcoe, the challenge with wedge bolts is that they too can look like they are fine, but the piece that is doing all the work...i.e. the wedge, is the first thing to rust. Also with the 5 piece, you can use old drill bits to drill out the nose cone..it takes a while but at least you can use the same hole, where reusing the hole on a wedge bolt is next to impossible unless you get really lucky on the removal.

If I was in your shoes placing or replacing bolts in a very wet environment I would only use glue ins or SS Triplex bolts which can actually be removed from the hole to check their condition and if good replaced. Yes they are expensive but it is the best tool for the application.

Mike, I am NOT trying to be a dick. I really am just asking, I just noticed it via your avitar. ASCA uses stud bolts? I mean, obviously they do, in the picture. Is it just a matter of what you guys have stock of at any given time? Although, as I look closer, that bolt says ACCA... I'm confused.

So what the hell makes you think that is a stud bolt?
Think really hard. Just what type of bolt is it?
Next time think before you post.

Mike wrote: John there is a right way and a wrong way to do everything.


There are many ways to do it right and many ways to do wrong.

Okay, I'm an idiot, what kind of bolt is it? I really don't know obviously.

Okay, pick on the stupid guy. I just tried looking at the FIXE site... I am obviously not a bolt aficionado...

I guess I was mistaken, but I always thought if it had a flat hex head, it was removable. If it has threads sticking out, wedge/stud.

I have replaced a number of bolts in the granite of the Black Hills of SD. Almost all of the 1/4" and 5/16" Rawl buttonhead contraction bolts are rusted when extracted. The climate in the Black Hills is not super wet nor is it totally arid. When placing bolts for a new route or replacing existing bolts I always overdrill the depth of the hole so the bolt can be pounded in and the hole plugged.

I have used Hilti Carbon Steel Kwikbolts for most new route applications in the past 17 years. I have yet to see one fail. For replacement Hilti S.S. Kwikbolts have been used until recently. The Black Hills Climbers Coalition funds and replaces bolts using only stainless steel bolts. The BHCC has recently adopted a standard to only use FIXE stainless steel bolts. The Triplex was tried and seems to suffer the same problems the Rawl 5-Piece bolts have in that they tend to not tighten up properly and become worthless spinners. The next step will be to overdrill the hole and to use FIXE Wedge Bolts.

One recurring problem I've seen with trying to resurect an existing hole is that when the old bolt is removed the rock around the hole blows out and a dish is left around the hole. I believe the person doing the repair work is confronted with making the decision to drill out an existing hole or starting with a new hole.

In the end I believe all replacement work should be completed using the highest quality stainless steel bolts (FIXE, HILTI, POWERS/RAWL). Hilti is the only constuction grade bolts that are actually batch tested and are sold in a very controlled environment where the purchaser can be contacted if there is a problem. For replacement using organizationally funded hardware cost should not be an issue.

Thanks for the chuckle John.
Sorry if you feel picked on but that was fun.
Yes it is a 12mm SS triplex. Like Greg said we stopped using studs years ago. I think I placed the last of the asca studs in 2002.

I dont know if they are 25 bucks but last time I priced 1\2" SS rawls they were close to that.

I can admit when I am wrong. I apologize to Mike for my ignorance.

Would anyone be willing to explain how that thing works? There isn't a cone, so it expands the sleave using the stud, how can you reverse that and remove it? I'm ignorant. Help. I have a hard time seeing outside the box sometimes.

Don't worry about it Bro.

AND SOMEONE CHIMED IN WITH MORE BULLSHIT...
Boys, isnt the triplex technically a stud... its threaded on the outside which I thought was the definition of the stud.
This has been amusing.

John, I'm not claiming any moral high ground. I'm just pointing out the obvious. I've seen areas that have been around for many decades with 3 generations of bolts that couldn't be replaced in the same hole, and it's just downright ugly. Chopped bolts sticking out, rusting, etc.

Use whatever bolt type you want, just be aware that if you use stud bolts they can not be removed. Someone was suggesting Hilti Coil bolts on a thread over on Supertopo - never tried them, but they look cool and are removable and reusable.

5-piece bolts aren't even that great for reusing the hole, it takes a lot of work (or not much work with a 36V drill), Triplex, these Coil bolts, even Bachar's favorite taper bolts are all much easier to reuse the hole.

A lot of people use stud bolts. I used to use them on FAs all the time. The ASCA used to use them regularly. But the fact remains that they can't be removed, and in a lot of places those bolts will get ugly in the future.

Greg,
Okay, I can appreciate your point of view.

I am still left trying to figure out how a damn triplex can be removeable...

Okay, I'll be able to sleep tonight:

"A very unique feature of this bolt is that it’s also designed to be easily removable for inspection and/or replacement. The way this is accomplished is that the recommended 12mm bits drill a hole slightly larger than the diameter of the bolt. The bolt tightens up just fine, but if you need to remove it, you loosen the nut, and pry the sleeve off. Presto, out comes the bolt! I was skeptical at first, how well could this really work? But my first try at removing one went smooth and it really does work. The only caveat with this bolt is that because the hole is slightly larger than the bolt, you need to be certain you tighten it properly the first time."