Ok, here's the deal. My current pair of climbing shoes are an old, beat up, way-too-large pair of ex-rentals that I bought for $10 from the local climbing gym. I mean, hey, for $10 you can't go wrong just starting out. But with the climbing I'll be doing soon and in the future, I feel it is time to retire the old shoes and upgrade to a brand new pair that actually fits, and has rubber to actually grip surfaces. And other than rope, it's practically the last piece of gear that I don't have for basic climbing.

I tried on a few different pair from different brands at one store so far. I've looked at some basic info on choosing a pair. But I'd also like some advice on fitment. I was told that I want something between one size smaller and a half size smaller than the shoes I wear on the street. The trouble is, my feet are wide, or at least my toe area is.

Of the shoes I tried on at the store, (Scarpa, 5.10, Evo . . .) the toe was jammed so hard in the toe box that it literally was bruising the corner of the nail and I wasn't even standing up. My toe was bent and cramped in the front. I havn't bought shoes in 6 years so I can't even remember what street size I wear (the labels are all worn off). I think it's 10.5 or 11. I know it's a 12 in Nike, but Nike is weird. The climbing shoes I tried on were 10s. I tried one pair in 9.5 and knew that couldn't be right.

Is this toe jamming a normal thing or is something still wrong? I know climbing shoes are supposed to be uncomfortable, but how uncomfortable are we talking about here?

THe climbing that I'll be using them for will be pretty much all top-rope routes both in a gym and on natural rock. I'll also be using these on the Grand Teton next summer. I just want to get this right before I blow a ton of money on a mistake.

Thanks.

1. Find a shoe that fits your foot.
2. Don't get them too small -- your big toe should be flat and touching the front of the shoe, but not bent over.
3. You're planning to do a long trad multi-pitch route on the Grand Teton, so you will need a shoe that you will be comfortable wearing for many hours. Think comfort, not excruciatingly tight.
4. As you get to be a better climber, you can go for tighter, high-performance shoes. Now is not the time to do that.
5. Remember to trim your toenails before going rock-shoe shopping.

A good gear shop should have one of those devices to measure shoe size, just get someone to measure your feet properly to start. Another option is to fax your feet to Mountain Tools. They have a guaranteed fit policy, you just tell them what you want to be able to do with the shoes. (I've never used this option, friends of mine have)

Climbing shoe fit is even weirder than Nike fit. Sometimes I wear a half-size smaller than my street shoe, sometimes 2 sizes smaller. Certain models (e.g. the old 5.10 V10s) I didn't need to size down much at all, while others (e.g. 5.10 Anasazi) I went down much smaller.

Unfortunately, it takes some trial and error. You can probably get a good fit just by hitting a few different stores in your area. Try on a bunch of brands and models until you find one that's snug but not brutal (Ron's advice is good).

Eventually you'll have a few models that fit you well and provide different performance benefits, but focus on fit now and worry about that later.

Thanks.

I'm at the disadvantage that there aren't a whole lot of choices for stores around here. REI only had about five shoes available, and one wasn't in a size that would fit. The next place would be the climbing gym. They might have some different stuff. The gym probably has that, but the lack of choices there is about the same as REI. Though REI probably has a ton of shoes in their online store, that does me about as much good as a store that has nothing in stock.

If my toe shouldn't be scrunched, then I'll also try some larger sizes. or maybe three of everything they have and start narrowing it down from there. I didn't exactly have a whole lot of time the other day for my first stop.

I know that LaSportiva can be kind of narrow, but you might try the Mythos or tradmaster shoes. They seem to be well liked by many and are a good comfortable shoe. Generally (correct me if i am mistaken) once you get an idea of your size in a particular brand(s) you will have a good basis for what you might want to order that is not in store. REI also allows you to return the shoes if they don't fit or you simply don't like the color. I gotta try taking my Muira's in to exchange them, I need fresh rubber and don't want to pay for a re-sole)
Or if you're ever in the N. Boulder area try hitting up the Boulder Sports RE-cycler, they usually have a good selection and range of sizes. It will save you some $$$ to boot.
Good advice folks!

Paul, I also have wide feet in the toe area and I've found that La Sportivas fit my feet the best due to the wide toe box on all the sportivas I've gotten. I use the solutions, they are expensive but comfortable and perform really well, however, they have an entry level velcro called the mantis that you might try... I think they're $85 or so, not too bad. Velcro shoes are extremely nice to have. Also, the tightness in the toe is where your edging performance comes into play, you want them tight enough to support your toes, but not tight enough to be painful to wear.

I just picked up scarpa Technos (tried on at REI, bought at Oregon Mountain Community: http://www.e-omc.com/ ).

I agree with Ron about the importance of comfort for long trad climbs. I would choose between Mythos and Techno based on fit, but remember that Mythos will likely stretch laterally across the toe area (maybe a full size?). Word is that Technos will stretch much less, and I think their lacing design allows for a bit wider range across the forefoot.

Since I actually have more than 1.5 hours to dedicate to this test fitting (unlike the couple times before), I can spend some quality time on the demo walls at REI and Adventure Rock today. Hopefully I'll go home with a pair of something.

Thanks for the info guys, I'll take that into consideration.

Well, I bought the Scarpa Techno in 10 1/3 size. The toe is slightly uncomfortable in the corner by the toe nail, but if the shoe stretches a little I think I'll be fine. I'm actually wearing them right now, and kinda lounging around the house with them.

The LaSportiva Mythos I tried on a 9.5 and those still felt the most comfortable of the bunch. And they certainly felt far more secure on my foot than the 10s that I tried on the day before. But I was still worried that they would stretch out, and they weren't as rigid as the Scarpas. It also seemed like the sole rubber was made of a softer compound to grip smoother, rounder surfaces. I thought that might wear out faster on natural rock which is much more aggressive than gym surfaces. (I think . . . )

The Scarpas, I was able to use the tiny edges more and feel stable and (fake) cracks felt good as well. I don't know . . . maybe I'm just so used to my royally beat up ex-rentals that slid around on my feet and had holes in the sole rubber . . . These things feel like they're tattooed on my feet.

I tried on a bunch of different sizes and brands on the walls to see how they felt and performed. REI had the wall "shut down" so I couldn't go very high, but there were enough features on the lower part of the pillar to give me a pretty good indication on how each shoe felt and performed.

And with REI's 100% guarantee, if these don't work out, I'll give the Mythos a long-term whirl and see how those work.

Thanks for all your help guys!

Glad to hear you found a pair. Comfort is king, and way downsizing is a myth, as shoes vary by brand, model, what/how they are made, your feet and your preference. You want a good, snug fit- not pain.

Wear what works for you, dont worry about "standards and hype". Lace can be fit better than velcro, but velcro is quite convienient. Millet, a big brand in Europe and newer here, has some great shoes. They size well and are quite solid in performance and comfort. Same for Mad Rock- the smaller names do have some great product- just in case your Scarpas dont work out. Again, what feels comfortable and works for YOU!

Also, you can put your shoes on and soak your feet in water, wear them(not walk) around the house and let them dry to fit. This breaks them in nicely. I have done with both leather and synhetic, lace and velcro. Has worked well every time(for me), making for a great fit and easy break in- just dont over wear them.

Good luck! Remember, a shoe is just another tool, the climbing is in you- Ingalls did it in hobnail, hemp roped boots!

5.10 V-Mile's are awesome...I'll never buy anything else!!