By JLP
From The Internet
May 20, 2009
| Kevin Sainio wrote: Aric, Sorry, I just got to read your report. Although the aliens that you tested may have failed, I just wanted to let you know that the first one was not a brazing failure.
It was clearly a brazing failure, just a different failure mode.
I'm really surprised you guys are still trying to get something resolved through CCH. You must have a lot of time to waste. The #1 rule for dealing with idiots is to stop dealing with the idiots. I sold all my cams and moved on.
If you really want to carry the activist torch, I would suggest contacting one of the 2-3 (or more..) lawsuits pending against CCH that I have read about. Not sure what their status is. | 
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By Shawn Mitchell
From Broomfield
May 20, 2009
| What microcams do you use, JLP? Or, which ones to fill the Alien niche? |
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By Aric Datesman
May 20, 2009
| JLP wrote: If you really want to carry the activist torch, I would suggest contacting one of the 2-3 (or more..) lawsuits pending against CCH that I have read about. Not sure what their status is.
Ooo... We were actually kicking around what would be more helpful and didn't know of any lawsuits. Any information about who or what states to look in?
EDIT- BTW, I'm not really trying to solve this through CCH as I don't expect them to do anything. Its more of a give-them-a-chance-before-doing-something-else kind of thing to avoid possible ramifications of skipping that step. |
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By Aric Datesman
May 20, 2009
| Kevin Sainio wrote: ...I just wanted to let you know that the first one was not a brazing failure. It looks to me like the cable broke.
Thanks Kevin. See JLP's post above... Both are braze failures, just different types. In my case insufficient braze was used to fill the joint and in yours the hot joint was quenched in water, which prevented it from bonding the the material in the head.
-a. |
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By Kevin Sainio
From Durango, CO
May 20, 2009
| Aric Datesman wrote: Thanks Kevin. See JLP's post above... Both are braze failures, just different types. In my case insufficient braze was used to fill the joint and in yours the hot joint was quenched in water, which prevented it from bonding the the material in the head. -a.
Thanks for the correction.
Kevin |
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By JLP
From The Internet
May 20, 2009
| Shawn Mitchell wrote: What microcams do you use, JLP? Or, which ones to fill the Alien niche?
I have 1 each all 5 C3s + up to 3 each Mastercam, purple through red. C4 Camalots 0.5 and up after that. I'm thinking about getting the #1, #2 WC Zero.
People will whine about how the C3 and Mastercam aren't as good as an Alien in such and such way - whatever. Yeah, it's not rocket science to discover that they are different cams.
With C3s + some Mastercams on your rack, you will most definitely find placements where an Alien will NOT work, especially in the smaller and narrower C3 sizes ... and maybe a few where an Alien would work better, like placements that require the cable to snake out of the crack a bit in the green and yellow Alien sizes - but you've probably still got good pro with the C3's and Mastercams.
Overall, I'm calling it a rack upgrade. What counts most 90% of the time to me is being able to fire the thing in quickly, and this is where Mastercams do way better - they don't collapse in your hand like a cooked noodle after a couple seasons of use.
Lawsuits: What I've read is that this Pins and Bones guy from RC.com sued them for his broken leg, Steelmonkey reported a friend with a steel plate in his skull (either sued or damn well should have), and there is a 3rd I believe where a purple failed and there was a ground fall - AZ? I could be making all this up, but it's just from stuff I've read here and RC.com and Supertopo, basically. Whatever courthouse covers Laramie would shed some light, no? I don't actually know squat about law, I'm an engineer. |
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By pfwein
From South Boulder
May 20, 2009
| Aric Datesman wrote: Ooo... We were actually kicking around what would be more helpful and didn't know of any lawsuits. Any information about who or what states to look in? EDIT- BTW, I'm not really trying to solve this through CCH as I don't expect them to do anything. Its more of a give-them-a-chance-before-doing-something-else kind of thing to avoid possible ramifications of skipping that step.
Have you considered notifying the US Consumer Product Safety Commission? Not saying you should or shouldn't or that it would or wouldn't care (I have no idea as to the answers to those questions)--just throwing it out there.
http://www.cpsc.gov/about/faq.html#rep |
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By Aric Datesman
May 20, 2009
| pfwein wrote: Have you considered notifying the US Consumer Product Safety Commission? Not saying you should or shouldn't or that it would or wouldn't care (I have no idea as to the answers to those questions)--just throwing it out there. http://www.cpsc.gov/about/faq.html#rep
That's exactly who I was trying to think of, but couldn't come up with the name with so much else going on. I'll keep it in mind. Thanks! |
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By Kevin Sainio
From Durango, CO
May 20, 2009
| The CPSC were notified for the initial recall and it was posted on there website. |
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By Brian Scoggins
From Laramie, WY
May 20, 2009
| JLP wrote: I have 1 each all 5 C3s + up to 3 each Mastercam, purple through red. C4 Camalots 0.5 and up after that. I'm thinking about getting the #1, #2 WC Zero.
Not to be pedantic, but don't you mean the #5 and #6 (or maybe even the #3 and #4) zeros? The #1 and #2 are smaller than a black alien. They're stupid tiny. |
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By JLP
From The Internet
May 20, 2009
| Brian Scoggins wrote: Not to be pedantic, but don't you mean the #5 and #6 (or maybe even the #3 and #4) zeros? The #1 and #2 are smaller than a black alien. They're stupid tiny.
I don't really like the zeros, but not much experience either. Yeah - the #1, #2 are supposed to be smaller than anything else out there, so I think that makes them worth having for that reason. A lot of places seem to only have the 1,2 in stock, so I can't be the only one who thinks so. |
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By Robert 560
From The Land of the Lost
May 20, 2009
| JLP wrote: I don't really like the zeros, but not much experience either. Yeah - the #1, #2 are supposed to be smaller than anything else out there, so I think that makes them worth having for that reason. A lot of places seem to only have the 1,2 in stock, so I can't be the only one who thinks so.
The #1 and #2 are really just aid pieces. I have two sets of Zeros #3 to #6 and love them. The have held up allot better then I thought they would.
The #1 makes a really cool key chain. I get tons of comments about it :) |
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By Brian Scoggins
From Laramie, WY
May 20, 2009
| JLP wrote: I don't really like the zeros, but not much experience either. Yeah - the #1, #2 are supposed to be smaller than anything else out there, so I think that makes them worth having for that reason. A lot of places seem to only have the 1,2 in stock, so I can't be the only one who thinks so.
I always thought that they'd be too difficult to place in that size (the #3 is bad enough) to really justify having. It'd be easier to just pack RPs, and avoid parallel cracks in the 1/4" range. Could just be me. The new generation Zeros are as good as Aliens in most placements, although the relatively narrow lobes make me trust a black alien over a gray zero every time. |
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By JLP
From The Internet
May 20, 2009
| Brian Scoggins wrote: I always thought that they'd be too difficult to place in that size (the #3 is bad enough) to really justify having. It'd be easier to just pack RPs, and avoid parallel cracks in the 1/4" range. Could just be me. The new generation Zeros are as good as Aliens in most placements, although the relatively narrow lobes make me trust a black alien over a gray zero every time.
Yeah, I can see how that would be - though I feel the same about a black Alien vs a C3. The narrowness of a C3 makes it a lot easier to find a little home for all the lobes in the smallest of cracks.
Haven't aided in a long time. Maybe I'll take the general MP advice here and buy some Scarpa Technos instead... |
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By Dave Cummings
From Louisville, CO
May 21, 2009
| I think that all of the talk about aliens is about older ones and I think that if you really love aliens then go buy a new set because they are bomber now. I stopped using them for a few years while they worked their problems out. Nobody has reported a failure since they started using the pull tester in 01/06. If you have old aliens just get rid of them and buy some new ones. |
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By Doug Shepherd
From Fort Collins, CO
May 21, 2009
| Dave Cummings wrote: I think that all of the talk about aliens is about older ones and I think that if you really love aliens then go buy a new set because they are bomber now. I stopped using them for a few years while they worked their problems out. Nobody has reported a failure since they started using the pull tester in 01/06. If you have old aliens just get rid of them and buy some new ones.
Are you for real? The only way to trust ANY Aliens at this point is to have them independently tested. |
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By JLP
From The Internet
May 21, 2009
| Dave Cummings wrote: Nobody has reported a failure since they started using the pull tester in 01/06. If you have old aliens just get rid of them and buy some new ones.
You're incorrect - many have failed with manf. dates after 1/06, mostly due, IMO, to overheated wires during brazing.
Search "Souders Crack 11d groundfall" on RC.com for pix, posted by someone on 5/4/07 of an Alien with a 03/07 manf. date. There are other pix I've seen as well posted on these forums of new Aliens with the same failure mode, even ones that were stamped "Tensile Tested".
Have fun with your Aliens, man. |
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By Robert 560
From The Land of the Lost
May 21, 2009
| JLP wrote: You're incorrect - many have failed with manf. dates after 1/06, mostly due, IMO, to overheated wires during brazing. Search "Souders Crack 11d groundfall" on RC.com for pix, posted by someone on 5/4/07 of an Alien with a 03/07 manf. date. There are other pix I've seen as well posted on these forums of new Aliens with the same failure mode, even ones that were stamped "Tensile Tested". Have fun with your Aliens, man.
Here is a link.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=15>>>>>
Good reading for the nonbelievers |
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By Dave Cummings
From Louisville, CO
May 21, 2009
| Holy Shit, I hadn't seem any pics of a new one breaking thats crazy |
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By Dave Cummings
From Louisville, CO
May 21, 2009
| Im convinced! no way am i using them anymore |
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By Aric Datesman
May 21, 2009
| Just FYI guys, the person who bootied the Red just posted what she knows about it on RC. If you scroll up from that a bit I posted cross sections of all three heads in my possession to show just how bad the braze joint on it was.
I've also dropped the guy I got the Purple from an email to get the history of that one. His name is and here here on MP somewhere. unfortunately I no longer have his phone number or MP username. I believe he lives in area and will now go search through the old FS ads to see if I can find him there.
-a.
EDIT- Dammit! Looks like that ad fell off the list last week. We did the deal 2nd week of January and the list only goes back to Jan 24. |
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By Aric Datesman
May 21, 2009
| Yup, troubling indeed, JLP. In case someone doesn't see the post about this pic on RC (there's other pics of the heads there too, so worth a look)
...the first thing I did was to hit the bottom of all three heads I have with a brass brush to clean up all the grot and make the fillet of the braze easier to see. Having done that the braze on the Red looks horribly underfilled to me as there's absolutely no fillet on the joint.
Here are the cross sections mounted on a 0.250" shoulder bolt I had laying around (same diameter as the axle and I used it to keep them in line and avoid issues with differing shadows/reflections in the pics). On top is the one from the Purple, which has some porosity but was apparently stronger than the axle. Notice how it doesn't line up with the others... The deforming axle actually bent the top of the head!
Next down is the Red that broke under 5kN. In one of her emails to me Nadia from CCH stated and a metallurgist is needed to evaluate the joint, but frankly I don't need a metallurgist to tell me that thing's hollow. Hell, you can see the individual strands in there with absolutely no braze on them!
The bottom one is from the Red I broke a while back and posted a cross section of earlier. (it failed at 11.3kN)
|
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By Dan Mottinger
May 21, 2009
| Thanks for posting the info Aric. Do you have any pictures of your pull-testing fixture itself--specifically just the cam-holder 'crack' metal plate configuration? For your tests do you set the fixture width to say, the middle of the manufacturer specified range or eyeball a good cam placement?.
(though these failures are independent of how the lobes are cammed, I was curious what that part of the testing procedure was).
-Dan M |
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By Mark Goodro
From Cottonwood Heights, UT
May 21, 2009
| JLP - that's a horrifying photo, it got my heart rate up. That may be the most effective visual of the problem I've seen yet.
I've been following this thread and the related thread on rc in the lab since they started, and I've got a sort of ethical question.
I have a set of Aliens from the Recall period, Blue - Red. Stamped dates are all between 0105 and 0505. All were purchased at REI. I returned a dimpled Orange when the recall first happened, and REI was great about it, I didn't even have to explain why I was returning it.
The rest of my set are not technically part of the recall, even though CCH is recommending sending them in for testing - though they have nothing officially posted regarding the recommendation. I'm sure there are some who would recommend sending them to CCH, but the trust issue weighs heavily in my mind. I no longer trust these cams, and I'm not sure if I want a new set. Given that there aren't many options for independent testing I'm ready to be done with the whole thing and return them to REI and get a set of MasterCams or more TCUs. The ethical issue is that while I'm sure REI will take them back - it's why I usually buy from them - it's not their fault and without an official recall on these units I doubt they'll get any compensation from CCH.
Thoughts? |
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