http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/02/news/economy/worker_producti>>>>>

JSW, you think that with lower labor costs in China that BD should have lowered prices. And because prices for cams have not come down that this is so outrageous that we should boycott.

But what about raw material costs? Aluminum up almost 60% in 2006 over 2004. http://www.econstats.com/spot/rt_alum.htm

And maybe you noticed that gas prices have risen a little bit over the last couple years?

I just think you need to get a bit of perspective here before calling for a boycott -- it's not like BD just went into partnership with the Sudanese government.

And then you say "BD is blatantly misleading us". How so? You may disagree with the definition of "outsourcing" but their long email was pretty crystal-clear about the arrangement with their China plant.

Getting back to the original discussion of BD in China vs keeping stuff here, no one seems to discuss in any great detail WHAT exactly BD is doing over there. CEO Peter talks about it to some degree but people need to look CLOSER, particularly when asking things like "What's their pollution output?" etc etc. I'm not a BD employee but do happen to have a former one as friend. He was an engineer that worked on many projects, most notably the hotwire and neutrino introductions. Does anyone know what the biggest challenge in cam production is? Assembly. You have to take all those parts (springs, pins, cables etc) and put them all together by hand. No machines here. Bins of cam lobes etc get put into a jig that holds the pieces together before finishing. Now, PM states that all the parts are made here - just final assembly takes place over seas. He notes that that frees up resources here for other things. Great! I say - Well paid, SLC employees are working on more complicated tasks like design and testing, along with testing assembly of new products, while people in China are treated well (presumably - BD states so and I take their corporate history to mean this is true). And the idea that sending BD components overseas has even a negligible effect on fuel and global warming is laughable. IF we were talking about a business with HUGE shipping needs, sure I'd buy it, but this is BD! What's the biggest item they sell? How many cams do you think they manufacture per year? How many containers do they use on the average container ship? (Note: the average capacity of said ship is 12,000 containers.)

If you're going to complain about companies in china - pick on one that matters in size - BD is so small and important to our small community we might as well line up to protest the use of fossil fuels in ropes next.

JSW don't waste my time with PM's dude. Post it here where everyone can read it.

I am tired of arguing this subject with all you haters so here it goes...

Yeah going overseas is a tough call for any manufacturer to make especially when there is a forum full of haters waiting to state their hate on the grounds of a "hey you're #1 so I am going #2 in your mouth, just b/c I found a reason to bitch" argument. Too bad, I will continue to support them b/c I like their products, I think their ethics are fair, all my BD interactions (from a dealer and consumer standpoint) have been nothing shy of excellent, and their products are superb!!! If overseas ethics are such a concern why don't you all quit using petroleum and petroleum based products (ie plastics)? As a matter of fact, quit your bitching and donate everything you own made overseas in developing nations so you can at least state an argument outside of the realm of hypocrisy. At least there isn't a war circulating around overseas labor. To impoverished communities in China this is actually a good thing (the cornerstone of business is this is good for you and this is good for me). As far as value being passed along to us, be grateful for a company that researches and develops new products and remains innovative instead of recklessly rehashing old ones (ie cch made in america).

The dumb and the negative tend to get picked first...

J

Aluminum costs are $1 a pound. There is less then one pound in a camalot which costs $60-$110.
New camalot = lowest labor and highest sale price in world.
Used camalot = higher labor originally and lowest sale price in world.
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/aluminum-price-forecas>>>>>

Jed and Daniel, since you didn't rebut any of my points you obviously have no logical argument, you agree with me and you concede. Thanks for admitting I'm right and you're welcome. If you're so smart and positive come work for me on salary-exempt. After a few 18 hour days, 6 days a week making me rich at your expense (like you would work in China) you'll cry like a b*tch and either quit or I'll fire you and make sure you don't collect unemployment. God bless America!

cost of insurance is always used as a mythical reason of why prices are high for anything. Insurance is paid by a company for everything it produces. Premiums are based on how many payouts-claims there have been. Divide the whole insurance premium by one cam and you'll find it's not high PER CAM. Salaries in the outdoor industry for an average worker? Low.

Rule of thumb is that manf costs are 1/4 retail, and that retail is 100% markup. Camalots are more or less close to that. Therefore, the largest piece of your cam dollar probably goes to a landlord (in the USA) for the retail shop. Camalot Jrs have been 59.95 since about 1990ish. At 3% inflation, their manf and material costs have therefore risen about 65% since then. Based on experience, I'd guesstimate direct labor is probably on the order of 1 dollar in China, 2 dollars in the USA per unit for assembly. It's a myth we pay them $1 an hour or some shit like that. Labor here is probably on the order of $7-8/hour with the real cost being 10-15/hour after workman's comp, social security, etc. In China we'll pay them maybe $4-$6 and hour, with the real cost likely under $10/hour. These are just ballpark kinds of numbers. Machining costs are likely similar in difference. They save a little more on manf. overhead. Raw material costs are utterly insignificant. Over a couple million units, these savings often mean the difference between a profit and a loss in today's economy.

J

Hey Daniel,
You wrote:

For the record I work 12-15 hour days (avg.) 5-7 days a week. That's what I HAVE to do to support my lifestyle so I am not shedding any tears for those doing it in a developing nation (forgive me but I come from a family of business owners so long hours are something we don't bitch about in my clan) so long as they work for good people (not tyrants such as yourself).

Following your post here I assumed you were just a homer for "the man". Turns out you are "the man". Does not make you a bad person but I thought I would point it out. Just the kind of person I am.

Peace,Love,and Bobby Sherman

BD is putting the "made in china" notice in tiny type in the spot of the hang tag where the retailer puts its price bar code label, so the country of origin is hidden. Nothing is on the piece itself about where its made because BD is ashamed of it. Its dishonest to hide the information.

You wern't laid off because you're self employed.

BD is hoping this controversy will go away. It won't. Moving the protection manufacturing to China throws a spotlight on BD's long planned move to get rid of all US manufacturing.
Today it's the assemblers of gear,tomorrow it will be the engineers and designers, via H1-B visa manipulation. It's the pattern in the Tech Industries and BD seems eager to follow it.