I always liked Lennon and Marx. John Lennon wrote some purty songs, and groucho was funny. What I really find hilarious is that one of Amercias big chants is to "Stop the Spread of Communism" and most of what we buy is manufactured in a communist county. Americans are the least informed most entertained people in the world. Fifty percent of us cannot get out of our indented couch's to go vote! I guess this 50% is watching Oprah. What's worse is that we do not even care about each other. I could be myopic in this statement. Corporations use to put their workers welfare first. Now it seems many corporations will throw anyone under the bus for a buck. I know this has happened at HP. Most of my neighbors work there and this is their sentiments. It seems like our country's moral stance is either abortion or gay marriage and ethics like in climbing, can be assigned to bar stools. What about some morals towards each other. How about some ethics in business. It seems that pure capitalism is not working as well as the founding fathers planned. Exxon made how many billions of dollars last quarter? Enron took the money and ran. Even our Attorney General is corrupt. It will be interesting to see what becomes of our country.

Gee I feel better!

The only thing I can say about BD going to China is that if one of their pieces made in China ever fails due to an manufacturing error, they might as well close the doors to their gear division. It seems that no one is really sure they are even making this move and look at all the hubbub. Think what the witch hunt will be like if a piece fails.

Have a nice day everyone.

Man, everyone is an armchair expert on business ethics in country and out. Ethics are in the eye of the management. If the company is run by bad people the ethics of that business will be as lousy as legally possible (if not worse). If the company is run by good people the ethics will be better. The locale of the business is trivial! It's the ownership/management that makes it good or bad. Slash and burn business ethics exist here, there, and everywhere. Just b/c a society has affluence doesn't necessarily mean it has a conscience (I have worked for some lousy folks in this country), it just means they are better at portraying it.

Bubb - Spending a few hours with an ACLU attorney made you an expert on who is at Gitmo, what there history and intentions were/are? If there was a group out there whose ethics are questionable, it'd be the ACLU.

Ethics in business. . . the point exactly.

This is all too frustrating and confusing! If I buy a BD cam now, I guess I'm supporting islamo-fascist, neoconservative, human-rights abusing commies!

I'm going back to my good old Lowe Alpine Systems cams:

BTW - tea, you're on my heroes list. seriously.

I guess maybe the A in ACLU has lost it's meaning? I think not.

They are in existence for the protection of our civil rights. To translate that into providing the world's terrorists with legal representation, I don't get that. I understand the necessity of: if this administration does this, then they could do the same to its citizens. So, as to safegaurd our rights, the ACLU is quite necessary in the happenings at Gitmo. Fine with me.

Let's move forward in the legal process then, or set them free. Which part of Boulder can we drop them off at?

Cameron: Not sure you actually read my post before responding?

"Fiedler - Again, I don't care about China. . . I care about America."
- My post was exactly about what is good for the US; I didn't say much at all about what would help China.

"This conversation has become convoluted due to some trying to make this into an issue whose context isn't important. HISTORY and POLICY and which country is the most horrific."
- I agree, and didn't address that. (My own 2 cents: A lot of home-grown and foreign criticism of the US is inane. But in the past and present the US hasn't always done things we can be proud of. I'd still much rather live here than any where else, for the rule of law, personal protections, and mix of idealism and pragmatism.)

"Try to stick with the issue here - BD has sent its homegrown facilities to China to save a few dollars for their personal fuckin salaries!"
- I just think your view here is really really simplistic, as I tried to point out. For the sake of argument, lets say you are right and it hurts the US to import products made overseas: So what is your solution? Ban foreign-made products? That just causes more harm than good in the long run.

Most soldiers get put to trial in a sham military court and do NOT recieve anything like real punishment. They are put on trial by peers who are sympathetic to their plight. Military courts are a JOKE.

But, when the U.S. government wants even dirtier stuff done, they hire out to war contractors. Whom, when killed or caught do not officially represent the U.S.

The thing that gets me is because some of us are critical of our government, you right wing nut jobs (generalization) want to say that we hate America! Apples and oranges folks. But if it makes you feel better...

In regards to Guantanamo for those whom haven't heard it: http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1123

Hopefully, I'm not trying to get you to that impression. I know we all care about this country. We just have different ways of expressing it. (Dang, John I want to be the rwnj, frankly I liked being the rw co-conspirator back in the day)

The problem is the apathy, which I must say for some really great reason, climbers clearly lack this attribute of our society.

Tavis, sorry I edited some stuff, hope it didn't change some context.