This is all too frustrating and confusing! If I buy a BD cam now, I guess I'm supporting islamo-fascist, neoconservative, human-rights abusing commies!

I'm going back to my good old Lowe Alpine Systems cams:

BTW - tea, you're on my heroes list. seriously.

I guess maybe the A in ACLU has lost it's meaning? I think not.

They are in existence for the protection of our civil rights. To translate that into providing the world's terrorists with legal representation, I don't get that. I understand the necessity of: if this administration does this, then they could do the same to its citizens. So, as to safegaurd our rights, the ACLU is quite necessary in the happenings at Gitmo. Fine with me.

Let's move forward in the legal process then, or set them free. Which part of Boulder can we drop them off at?

Cameron: Not sure you actually read my post before responding?

"Fiedler - Again, I don't care about China. . . I care about America."
- My post was exactly about what is good for the US; I didn't say much at all about what would help China.

"This conversation has become convoluted due to some trying to make this into an issue whose context isn't important. HISTORY and POLICY and which country is the most horrific."
- I agree, and didn't address that. (My own 2 cents: A lot of home-grown and foreign criticism of the US is inane. But in the past and present the US hasn't always done things we can be proud of. I'd still much rather live here than any where else, for the rule of law, personal protections, and mix of idealism and pragmatism.)

"Try to stick with the issue here - BD has sent its homegrown facilities to China to save a few dollars for their personal fuckin salaries!"
- I just think your view here is really really simplistic, as I tried to point out. For the sake of argument, lets say you are right and it hurts the US to import products made overseas: So what is your solution? Ban foreign-made products? That just causes more harm than good in the long run.

Most soldiers get put to trial in a sham military court and do NOT recieve anything like real punishment. They are put on trial by peers who are sympathetic to their plight. Military courts are a JOKE.

But, when the U.S. government wants even dirtier stuff done, they hire out to war contractors. Whom, when killed or caught do not officially represent the U.S.

The thing that gets me is because some of us are critical of our government, you right wing nut jobs (generalization) want to say that we hate America! Apples and oranges folks. But if it makes you feel better...

In regards to Guantanamo for those whom haven't heard it: http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1123

Hopefully, I'm not trying to get you to that impression. I know we all care about this country. We just have different ways of expressing it. (Dang, John I want to be the rwnj, frankly I liked being the rw co-conspirator back in the day)

The problem is the apathy, which I must say for some really great reason, climbers clearly lack this attribute of our society.

Tavis, sorry I edited some stuff, hope it didn't change some context.

well said- i hear it might be cool at the creek this weekend....

"All I can say is Wow. Listening to some of you is scary."

Likewise Glime. . . you get nuttier with each response. And tell me, what do you know about the military? Were you once JAG or something? Some officer in the judicial branch? I could have sworn that the Abu ghraib (you know, the place of heinous atrocities) soldiers were pretty well slammed.
(BTW I didn't vote for Bush so I'm not the crazy neo-con you'd like me to be).

Sorry I couldn't respond to everyone (I know, it's a let down). . . time is short.

You people want to make the world a better, safer, cleaner place? Start with your own country, and its citizens. Sending our money to support China and take away from America is bad business. That's my point(s).

all i own are camalots!!!!

nah, we don't get pissed off, we get sprayed on!

Hubbell - "I don't think anyone here has said that buying from China is better than buying from the US."

Nor did I imply this. . . .
Nor did I insinuate American perfection. For the upteenth time I'm simply stating that we ought to support America and our citizens, even if it deduces the CEO's to a mere 500k annual bonus.

Glime -
Aha! So that's the problem.
The media, for the most part, is another one of those great establishments that have been "shot at and missed" on many occassions, but "shit at and hit" even more!
That is to say they are wide-eyed and frantic, but mostly full of it.
(Turczyk, right on).

Okay, I'm done defending my support of country (whacky babble).
Feel free to reign terror and slander upon my good name.
It's been a pleasure.

This thread is amazing.
Amazingly pathetic.
There are some good points by those that actually stick to a topic
but the rest of you sound like Norm of Cheers or something.
Do you guys really find enjoyment in punter discussions like these?
Seriously.
Just staggering. Thanks for reminding me in 5 minutes why I don't read stupid forums.
Don't bother replying w/ your cute little comebacks....I won't come back to anymore important forum discussions like this one.
From the Troll under the Bridge.

okay, Lee, see you later.

I thought this was all fairly engaging & we hadn't discussed things for a while.

Seemed more like a community to me.