"Not saying I support the Chinese government, but the record of the U.S. is full of atrocities at every turn as well, and we would do well to remember it." - Tavis (and many others in this forum)

We, America, have the best/cleanest human rights policies, and HISTORIES, than any other nation (I would argue).
It's so easy to take apart your own house. . . but do you really understand it's construction?

America did this, and America did that!! Oh the atrocities of America! Let's compare our policies and histories whenever we are presented with another countries present policies and actions.
Hell man, westerners traded slaves in the past, so we should allow other countries to do it today! I mean, what the hell, who do we think we are?!

Very immature method of reasoning, which isn't, in fact, reasoning at all. Any of you anti-Americans hear of the word, Growth? Maybe you progressives actually understand the meaning of , Progress?

Are some of you actually and honestly comparing American policy and history with Chinese? If not, then quit with the contrasting points.

BD is a sell-out. Simple. You can argue 'till you're blue in the balls, and point out Americas past atrocities if for some reason in some way this helps you and your twisted inability to reason. . . .
But facts are facts - and you'd do best to understand them.

You want success? Start at the bottom, and dig down.

In "Escape Routes" (by Dave Roberts) there is a chapter about being on an organized bicycle tour through China DURING the Tiananmen Square demonstrations. I'm not sure which was most chilling: The way the Chinese government washed it all away or the callous attitude of the Western tourists.

You can read the first few pages of the chapter if you search for the book on Google Books.

Being aware of your own flaws is neither immature nor anti-american. My point was that the cold war and the endless battle of capitalism vs communism resulted in terrible atrocities on both sides. The atrocities of the American government in the name of fighting communism perhaps resulted in less deaths, but when you're talking about hundreds of thousands of innocent people dead vs. millions, that's mass murder however you look at it. The fact that these crimes against humanity were usually committed on soil other than ours does not make the United States government any less responsible. So no, we don't have the cleanest record on human rights, not by a long shot. That title likely belongs to Switzerland.

Did BD "sell out" when moving to China? Probably. But so did any corporation that moved it's manufacturing overseas, or south of the border. Anyone want to go work in a maquiladora in Mexico? A factory in the Phillipines? A coal mine or soda factory in South America? The abuses of those workers rival those in China, and if you think that China is the only place that you can get killed for voicing your opinion, tell that to the Columbian union leaders that have been murdered by paramilitaries paid by Coca Cola, or Chiquita Banana, or Drummond Coal. Tell that to the indigenous people murdered and displaced by first-world resource extraction efforts like the Freeport copper mine in Irian Jaya, or by oil drilling in the Amazon.

Communism isn't what causes people to be repressed and abused. Greed is the reason, and greed exists in excess both in the U.S. and in China. We are lucky enough that we in this country enjoy the protection of the law, but those in other countries, whether it's China, Mexico, or Columbia, do not enjoy those protections, and they suffer from it. It doesn't matter whether the government is communist or not, nor whether they are a U.S. ally or not. If human rights abuses is what you are really concerned about, you would do well to avoid purchasing products from any country besides the U.S. or Europe. And hell, stop driving your car while you're at it.

China is undoubtable a shitty place to live and work. But we can't focus all of our attention there. We don't have the power to change the Chinese government, but we do have the power to influence corporate power and our own foreign policy, and there are plenty of places besides China that could use help.

TAVIS WROTE:
"The fact that these crimes against humanity were usually committed on soil other than ours does not make the United States government any less responsible. So no, we don't have the cleanest record on human rights, not by a long shot. That title likely belongs to Switzerland."

tavis, switzerland has never stood for anything other than themselves. furthermore, switzerland has not single-handedly increased the standard of living of the entire free-world.

enough of the retarded comparisons. my 6 yr old boy knows the difference between slaves/ oppressed and free folk. issues of right/wrong don't become muddled until you get mixed in with the common people.

(Edit: Off topic babble deleted )

Cameron, Capt.E, and other pitchfork-wielders (sorry, couldn't resist):

With all due respect to your strong positions on BD as a sell out, and frustration/anger with capitalism, globalization, human rights/political issues in China, and maybe enviro concerns, do you really think America would be better off if we followed your recommendations?

If I understand, we should have nothing to do with countries and their products if they don't meet our various current standards? And maybe even no interaction whatsoever? So we should get no wood, food, raw materials, OIL (!) from any of these countries either? We should just be completely self-reliant, perhaps only working with "Western Democracies" and other PLUs (people like us). Is that really going to protect US jobs, lower total environmental harm, promote social change in China, etc etc.? That kind of closed border approach sounds more like the countries in the world I'd least like to live in economically or socially (North Korea, Iran, Venezuela, Russia, ...)

I don't really see how BD is hurting America. Assuming that the BD post is truthful, they are highly focused on maintaining quality (so climbers are OK on safety). The environmental impact is about the same -- all the aluminum sounds like its still US made, and that's got to be the biggest factor. So, yes, somewhere in America there are fewer jobs where you can insert triggers/springs into cam lobes all day. (And maybe you can get promoted to sewing the slings on.) But US engineers, accountants, logistics experts, quality control experts, designers, etc. are making a good living in a growing industry.

I'm not saying everything is just fine with laissez-faire capitalism. We should ask the hard questions on BD's quality, enviro, factory conditions, etc. But for me a fortress america approach is a prescription for long term decline.

I just think the world is more complicated than your position allows, and I'm much more sympathetic to the impressively frank discussion of tradeoffs offered here by BD and CiloGear.

Radcliffe - of course. . . but I fail to see your point.

Kevin - get a grip on reality dude. Take a look at HISTORY. Do you know what history is? If not, begin by looking up the word.
I'm not talking about homeless bullshit, I'm talking about history of policy and actual atrocity.

BTW, I don't much care about the Chinese form of politics, or their ethics or policies. . . . I care about America - and the jobs lost, et al.

KEVIN WROTE:
'Maybe do some research on homelessness, a condition not seen in Canada and most of the European Nation. Here we are the richest nation in the world with an estimated 10% of our population either homeless or headed that way.'
KEVIN- I THINK THAT 10% IS ABOUT RIGHT - WE LIVE IN A FREE COUNTRY WHERE YOU MAKE YOUR OWN FINANCIAL DECISIONS - AMONGST ANY GROUP OF FREE PEOPLE, YOU'LL HAVE A HAND-FULL WHO WOULD RATHER LIVE LIKE A DIRTBALL RATHER THAN WORK THEIR ASS OFF.

'It is easy for us to mention all the atrocities that China has committed. I am sure most Europeans could double the number for the US. We just don't hear that part of the news...The part that our government doesn't want us to hear.

Stop being a puppet and try free thought, kill your TV and pick up a book. Or don't and continue to live in a state of denial. There are reasons that the US is hated by most of the rest of the world. Funny that considering we have the "best human rights policies"... '

HAVEN'T HAD A TV IN THE HOUSE FOR 8 YEARS. I GET ENOUGH LEFTIST MIND-GOO FROM NPR THANK-YOU. I WOULD ARGUE THAT THE US IS HATED BY THE FREE-MEDIA IN THE WORLD / WHO HAPPEN TO BE MOSTLY LEFTIST-SOCIALISTS. I ALSO DO NOT HAVE A SINGLE BUMPER STICKER ON MY VEHICLE.

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(edit: Off topic babble deleted)

Fiedler - Again, I don't care about China. . . I care about America.

This conversation has become convoluted due to some trying to make this into an issue whose context isn't important. HISTORY and POLICY and which country is the most horrific.
Try to stick with the issue here - BD has sent its homegrown facilities to China to save a few dollars for their personal fuckin salaries!

Glime - Guantanamo Bay? What are you kiddin me man!! Oh yes, that's horrible - 4 squares, 5 prayers, athletics and all the fresh water you can drink.
We have commited atrocities in the past, but grown and progressed. . . unlike many I can think of. That was my glaringly obvious point. We attempt to learn and progress, and do a good job at it.

Tavis - Switzerland? Dude, that is one pathetic comparison. And being that the Swiss history is pretty damn extensive, I'd be willing to investigate and argue that point. Remember, America hasn't been here for too long. And again, talking history here man.

Kevin, dude. . . . We've only been around for a few hundred years! You want to "look back" 50 or 100 years? Shit man, who do you think started the slave trade/traffic? Try looking back several hundred years, and then post your comments. Believe me, I have a small library of history books, not just college text.
America has grown and prospered and helped out more people within it's short existence, than any other country, to certainly include Switzerland! So get off your bashing trip and face the facts - and you'll have to look a little deeper than 100 years.

Would love to continue but have to get back to work. . . .
Later -

but this thread has certainly drawn out the village-people who visit this site and has once again provided a sounding board to denounce the US

why not? it's entertaining, and you can do it here w/out fear of being popped in the back of the head!

Michael, for the record I don't hate America, but I do think we have fallen short of our standards lately. Neither do I endorse or condone the atrocities that other countries have committed. All I am saying is that people need to question both the source and content of the things they hold true, unless they want to come across as complete morons.

Anyways back to the subject at hand. I will buy your C4's from you if you cannot stand to use (EDIT: Cams made in China). Personally I will trust in Black Diamond until they give me a reason not to. I inspect every cam I receive and am satisfied with the quality of their gear. If a local company starts producing a comparable product I will check them out as well. I try to buy local, but considering that cams are a product that should last for 20+ years I do not think it is as important as buying local produce.

(edit: off topic babble deleted)

All I can say is Wow. Listening to some of you is scary.

did the FONT thing to differentiate our quotes- sorry man, but i work in CAPS alot too w/ my job.

not sure how seriously i want to be taken- but i appreciate that some of what i said sounded well thought-out. thanks!

as far as homelessness goes, there are support structures to provide them ASSISTANCE to change their lives and become self-supportive. When Jr. grows old enough to ditch his loser dad, he'll be thankful that he lives in a free society where he can work hard, be successful, and not fall into the same traps his daddy did.

BrettPierce
7 minutes ago

Cpt. E wrote:
but this thread has certainly drawn out the village-people who visit this site and has once again provided a sounding board to denounce the US why not? it's entertaining, and you can do it here w/out fear of being popped in the back of the head!



What is wrong with pointing out areas in which the US can improve? Is it more American to pretend that we are perfect? It seems that if anyone doesn't agree with you, then they are not patriotic Americans.

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