MADE IN CHINA= MADE BY COMMUNISTS

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There are just as many ways to get something manufactured in China as in the US.

The lowest quality goods come out of China from US companies who go to China because they can't do it themselves - they don't know how, don't know where to start, etc., so a bunch of natives with little to no education, living in cinder block pigeon holes, invent it all for them based on the knowledge they gained while operating some punch press in the factory across the street.

BD clearly has a functioning process. Their pain is the smallest in that they have something that works, they just need to show them where all the knobs and dials are. As long as BD convinces the right people to go expat and live over there to monitor and control things, it should be fine.

Yeah - CCH - some machinist with no formal business, manufacturing or design experience hires a bunch of stoners and goes to town for REI. They are going to fry in the pending lawsuits. Their website is scary - check out the latest news and testing pages. Love that drop tower.

J

I find it hard to believe that I am going to defend China.

Now China is far far far far far far far from perfect. But the communist argument is outdated. It is a label that you attach so that you don't have to think.

If you want the Chinese government to continue with its brutal ways, then isolate them. If you want them to change and develop human rights, then go and partake in the cultural revolution that is taking place there. That is the best thing that you can do. It is actually a good thing for the world that Black Diamond is there. They are going to import some of their ethics and morals, and for as much as I hate greedy capitalism, I have to admit, that it is the best thing for the people of China based on my observations.

On the other hand, Russia claims to be democratic (you don't believe that do you?) but in reality is atleast equal in their treatment of their people if not worse. Again, based on my observations.

Don't punish the people of China because some of their leaders are still living in the past. The best thing that you can do is give them support so that their leaders are forced into change because of their own greed.

Art imitating life?? or vice versa

Firefly & Serenity (from the wiki):

In addition, it is a future where the only two surviving superpowers, the United States and China, fused to form the central federal government, called the Alliance, resulting in a fusion of the two cultures, as well. According to Whedon, nothing has changed in the future: there are more people with more advanced technology, but they still have the same problems politically, morally, and ethically

Beware the Reavers...

Tony wrote:
"That sounds a lot like the whole evil empire talk of the McCarthy time, but that was 60 years ago, right? I guess Reagan did kind of revive the whole red scare with the arms race though"

"At least the USSR was up front about it (United Soviet SOCIALIST republic)... But our political talking heads decided that they were comunists for them. Probably so as to associate the local commies witht eh evil empire, eh? But what can I say?"

Tony: i believe that Stalin and his mass-murder of millions of his own citizens pretty-much provided western civilization w/ all the ammo they needed to call them the evil-empire.

I guess that whole thing about Native Americans was just a democratic phase. There really is not much difference other than we took an area that was not as heavily populated.

BD gear -



approved by Che.

yup- your right mark- and had it been heavily populated, we would have penned up and murdered every one of those 'savages', right?

i like to believe we've come a long way since the 18th century.

like it or not- there is a difference between western man and those that rule by the barrel of a gun.

what do you stand for?

Really doesn't mean much. I'm reading Che's biogrophy right now. I guess you could say I have Che on the mind.

However now that I've thought about a real response I would have to say that I think the manufacturing and globalization in China has probably done more to improve human rights and quality of life in China than anything else since the end of WWII. If BD/K2/Marker/Marmot or any other companies want to manufacture/assemble products there then good for them. Six sigma is still six sigma, even in China.

What a great topic for discussion.
I emailed BD a few months ago about this very topic and their spokesman replied that BD's manufacturing in China is not out sourcing per se, as they will be BD owned operations, etc. Tell that to the BD employess in SLC.
If the market for BD cams is growing, then all that growth comes without any job growth in the US.
It seems that small companies like BD are shamlessly adopting the blood sucking morailty of wal mart and their legion, who seem blind to the connection between community and commerce.
Next time you read BD proganda on their website about environment and people, know that they have voted with their feet and their money, and chosen to send manufacturing to the country that cares nothing about either.

(text of emails to follow, with order reversed for continuity:)

Hi,
Since 1970, I have been a loyal used of Chouinard and now BD gear. I know you manufacture in SLC, UT. My question, are you now or do you plan to move climbing protection manufacturing to China?
Thanks,
Gahan Haskins

Hi Gahan,
Thanks for your question.
For the most part we have been manufacturing and/or assembling products at various locales around the world for some time know including China and Taiwan. This would also include some styles of carabiners and personal protection equipment. We also still do quite a bit of this production here in SLC as well.
More info here:
http://www.bdel.com/about/press.php#061606
Best Regards,
Jeff Maudlin
BDEL

Hi Jeff,
Would I be able to find out exactly what gear is manufactured in Salt Lake City?
Are C4, and C3's made in the USA? Stoppers, Hexes?
Thanks,
Gahan Haskins

Not very easily. We're doing (or planning on doing), many of the same styles both here and abroad. For the most part Stoppers, Hexes are still done (only) here but that is due to change. C3's the same. For C4s they are being done in both locales right now.

Note: There will ALWAYS be a very substantial amount of manufacturing done in SLC And the reason we're moving some product to China is not just for cost reasons - it's also to free up resources. It's also important to note that this is a BLACK DIAMOND manufacturing facility that happens to be in China - not just us outsourcing our gear.

Jeff

Jeff Maudlin (jeffm@bdel.com)
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com

Black Diamond Retail, Inc. (801) 278-5533 (phone)
2084 East 3900 South (801) 278-5544 (fax)
Salt Lake City, Utah 84124

Run for the hills! It's the COMMUNISTS! We've got to protect our Precious Bodily Fluids! What is this, 1964? Government propaganda goes both ways, folks.

There are plenty of better reasons to be anti-China than it's ostensibly communist government.

I do not think this is anything new. I am about 99% positive that my first set of C4's bought right after they were released said:

Made in China

What a bunch of needless sharpening of pitchforks.

'Amen' is not allowed in China.
but it is in Taiwan..........i wonder if BD understands the difference?

BD's $.02

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for your thoughtfully composed questions. In addition, I have
just read the thread on MountainProject and I am expanding upon your
questions so as to set the record straight for all those there. Everyone
is entitled to their own opinion, however it helps when they have the
facts vs. rumors to develop those opinions from.

Before addressing the more itemized claims it is important to note that
BD is 100% committed to building the finest climbing gear on the planet.
We go to great lengths to evaluate our processes in house and gain third
party certification to the extent that we lead the industry in this
regard. As a growing global brand, when we evaluate our production we
must be unbiased as to the best overall course of action in terms of
quality, cost and location. Our aim is to constantly improve our systems
and compromise nothing.

First off, it is important to understand that our manufacturing of
goods, specifically pro, is being done in OUR factory in China. This is
not an outsourced vendor operation. This is a Black Diamond built,
owned, and managed facility that is operated and staffed by Black
Diamond employees.

The BD team that got the operation going and is managing it has and/or
does include the former head of engineering and manufacturing of BD SLC,
the second in command of our QA department, our senior special project
guy, one of our lead process engineers and a host of other BD employees
(including myself) who have shuttled back and forth between BD Asia and
BD North America. For that matter, we have had BD Europe employees there
helping out as well. Conversely, we have had a steady flow of BD Asia
employees coming here to SLC to train.

Secondly, please understand that the testing equipment, testing
standards, and training have all come from BD USA and are managed by BD
SLC people at this time. For that matter, our BD facility just passed
its ISO-9001 audit that was performed by the same French Senior Auditor
from APAV-ASCERT that has been certifying our SLC operation for the past
half dozen years. He had nothing but compliments and we are THE first
company in our industry to have certification via a European certified
body.

Thirdly, understand that the supply chain of components and parts is the
same as it has been. The cams going onto the Camalots are made from
USA-produced7000 series aluminum, that are machined on our CNCs overseen
by our engineers; the anodizing is done by Easton Alumuinum here in SLC
and then they are shipped to our Asian facility. Cable, springs, and
other parts still come from here or from the same suppliers that we were
using when we were assembling them here. The supply chain is not
changed.

The Asian employees at BD's operation are well trained, dedicated, adult
professionals who work in a new, very modern facility that is the envy
of people in SLC. All of them who have worked for us get out climbing on
company trips and we have built a very large, climbing wall at the
facility that allows employees to climb at lunch and after work. Our
training and their dedication is nothing less than inspiring.

As you know, when you order an iPod or a PowerBook directly from Apple
it comes directly from their facility in China. If you are living in
Asia and purchase an Audi A4 or A6 it is being made in China and some of
the Euro luxury manufacturers are preparing to export their first
Chinese-made cars. Having climbed and worked in China, I can assure you
that the Chinese are a joy to climb with; take great pride in their
work; and are capable of great things. The question simply comes down to
management and ownership and the vision and commitment of those in
charge.

BD Asia shares BD's ethos, commitment to high quality, and they share
our passion for the life-defining activity of climbing. It is truly the
world's universal Esperanto a language we all not only speak but feel.
BD is a very global brand just like climbing and skiing are global
endeavors. For that matter, some of our fastest sales growth has been in
China and Asia as a middle class emerges and has time to explore the
beauty and challenge of Asia's crags and mountains. The marketplace
feels much like the U.S. felt like in the very late 60s and early 70s.
BD is committed to being global and to being an intimate and
contributing member of each climbing/ski community that we are a part
of. That is true in Europe as well.

So, this is not about shutting down BD SLC as a manufacturing facility,
to the contrary we have expanded our SLC facility this past year by 50
employees and we are fully maxed out, even with two full shifts. It's
about the right products in the right places with the right skill sets
and expertise, all by BD employees. We view this expansion very much as
an extension of what we are already doing. The processes, materials,
quality assurance are all the same. It's still Black Diamond.

Over the past year we have been assembling a large percentage of our ice
tools at BD China. Technical tools are done at both facilities currently
though they may shift fully to BD Asia. In addition, we are assembling
ATCs there and plan to slowly shift C3s there over time as well as some
other products. Many products will remain here while some will be done
at both facilities in future years. It is a work-in-process. It's
"generally"labor intensive assembly that is done at BD China. Quality
assurance is performed both in Salt Lake City and Asia by BD employees.
Regardless, it's still BD, and still being made by BD.

Finally you should be aware that the majority of our competitors are
having climbing hardware products made for them at OEM facilities in
Taiwan and China but they neither control nor manage these and most seem
to avoid country of origin labels by bringing the goods in via Europe or
claiming them as "sub-assemblies" (i.e. two carabiners that are clipped
to a draw are a sub-assembly and hence don't say they are made in China,
Taiwan or wherever and you are left thinking they are made in Europe).

As stated~WBD is proud to have created our own ISO-certified, owned,
staffed, managed and trained operation in Asia. Our customers are the
big beneficiaries here.

Thanks for the opportunity to state the facts,

THE EMPLOYEE OWNERS OF BLACK DIAMOND EQUIPMENT



Peter Metcalf

CEO/Co-Founder

Wow. I'd say you get a lot at BD for $.02!

Peter, thanks for your well-considered response. I remain a loyal customer!

From El Jeffe himself! Great response Peter!

Sounds like BD is saying "assembled in China" but out of american made components.