Aaron, how can you possibly compare the United States to China? You are right in that we are not perfect, no one is. But the US does not intentionaly kill innocent people. We don't imprison and torture missionaries for attempting to push their religion on our people. We don't wage extermination campaigns against people in our own nation because we don't agree with their beliefs.

If you don't like the current regime in America you are free to speak about it. If you tried to post the above about, and in China you could very well be taken outside and shot. In the US we have only to wait for the next election to affect change, but that is not the case in China

America has some bad spots in our past (our treatment of native americans), but our trangressions are nowhere near the scale of the Chinese.

I wasn't saying the US and China are the same, John. I was showing that the "China does bad stuff so we shouldn't buy from them" argument can be held against the US as well. But believe me, I think that all things considered I'll still take the US over anywhere else in the world!

I was trying to illustrate that boiling this complicated issue down to "Made in China = bad, Made in USA = good" is a total oversimplification. Each nation has its complexities and positives/negatives. All things being equal I do all I can to purchase products made in the US. But all things are rarely equal. The ethics of the firm, how they treat their workers, what they do with their money; all that should ideally play into how I make my purchasing decisions.

Trust me -- I have very serious issues with the Chinese government and how they handle themselves in our world. But I'm not going to totally boycott a company ONLY because they moved some manufacturing over there. The issue is bigger than that. I'd like to hear from BD regarding their thoughts and rationale on this.

MADE IN CHINA= MADE BY COMMUNISTS

• ***

There are just as many ways to get something manufactured in China as in the US.

The lowest quality goods come out of China from US companies who go to China because they can't do it themselves - they don't know how, don't know where to start, etc., so a bunch of natives with little to no education, living in cinder block pigeon holes, invent it all for them based on the knowledge they gained while operating some punch press in the factory across the street.

BD clearly has a functioning process. Their pain is the smallest in that they have something that works, they just need to show them where all the knobs and dials are. As long as BD convinces the right people to go expat and live over there to monitor and control things, it should be fine.

Yeah - CCH - some machinist with no formal business, manufacturing or design experience hires a bunch of stoners and goes to town for REI. They are going to fry in the pending lawsuits. Their website is scary - check out the latest news and testing pages. Love that drop tower.

J

I find it hard to believe that I am going to defend China.

Now China is far far far far far far far from perfect. But the communist argument is outdated. It is a label that you attach so that you don't have to think.

If you want the Chinese government to continue with its brutal ways, then isolate them. If you want them to change and develop human rights, then go and partake in the cultural revolution that is taking place there. That is the best thing that you can do. It is actually a good thing for the world that Black Diamond is there. They are going to import some of their ethics and morals, and for as much as I hate greedy capitalism, I have to admit, that it is the best thing for the people of China based on my observations.

On the other hand, Russia claims to be democratic (you don't believe that do you?) but in reality is atleast equal in their treatment of their people if not worse. Again, based on my observations.

Don't punish the people of China because some of their leaders are still living in the past. The best thing that you can do is give them support so that their leaders are forced into change because of their own greed.

Art imitating life?? or vice versa

Firefly & Serenity (from the wiki):

In addition, it is a future where the only two surviving superpowers, the United States and China, fused to form the central federal government, called the Alliance, resulting in a fusion of the two cultures, as well. According to Whedon, nothing has changed in the future: there are more people with more advanced technology, but they still have the same problems politically, morally, and ethically

Beware the Reavers...

Tony wrote:
"That sounds a lot like the whole evil empire talk of the McCarthy time, but that was 60 years ago, right? I guess Reagan did kind of revive the whole red scare with the arms race though"

"At least the USSR was up front about it (United Soviet SOCIALIST republic)... But our political talking heads decided that they were comunists for them. Probably so as to associate the local commies witht eh evil empire, eh? But what can I say?"

Tony: i believe that Stalin and his mass-murder of millions of his own citizens pretty-much provided western civilization w/ all the ammo they needed to call them the evil-empire.

Numbers are something like 12 million non-Russian civilians killed and 10 million Russians by Russians during the war and post-war years immediately following.

At the beginning of the war, before the initial pact between Germany and Russia was known, the Russians offered to train the Polish military officer corps. So about 20,000 officers from the various Polish armed services went to a camp in the Katyn forest in Bialarus, where they were mass murdered. This was pretty much the whole office corps, which consisted of all the intellectuals, doctors and such from Poland who volunteered to the services at the outbreak of war. Now you know the back story behind why the Pollacks are dumb, but seriously that is just a taste of communism. Want to know why we never heard of crap like this in school, cause the commies were "up-front" about it.

I guess that whole thing about Native Americans was just a democratic phase. There really is not much difference other than we took an area that was not as heavily populated.

BD gear -



approved by Che.

yup- your right mark- and had it been heavily populated, we would have penned up and murdered every one of those 'savages', right?

i like to believe we've come a long way since the 18th century.

like it or not- there is a difference between western man and those that rule by the barrel of a gun.

what do you stand for?

Really doesn't mean much. I'm reading Che's biogrophy right now. I guess you could say I have Che on the mind.

However now that I've thought about a real response I would have to say that I think the manufacturing and globalization in China has probably done more to improve human rights and quality of life in China than anything else since the end of WWII. If BD/K2/Marker/Marmot or any other companies want to manufacture/assemble products there then good for them. Six sigma is still six sigma, even in China.

What a great topic for discussion.
I emailed BD a few months ago about this very topic and their spokesman replied that BD's manufacturing in China is not out sourcing per se, as they will be BD owned operations, etc. Tell that to the BD employess in SLC.
If the market for BD cams is growing, then all that growth comes without any job growth in the US.
It seems that small companies like BD are shamlessly adopting the blood sucking morailty of wal mart and their legion, who seem blind to the connection between community and commerce.
Next time you read BD proganda on their website about environment and people, know that they have voted with their feet and their money, and chosen to send manufacturing to the country that cares nothing about either.

(text of emails to follow, with order reversed for continuity:)

Hi,
Since 1970, I have been a loyal used of Chouinard and now BD gear. I know you manufacture in SLC, UT. My question, are you now or do you plan to move climbing protection manufacturing to China?
Thanks,
Gahan Haskins

Hi Gahan,
Thanks for your question.
For the most part we have been manufacturing and/or assembling products at various locales around the world for some time know including China and Taiwan. This would also include some styles of carabiners and personal protection equipment. We also still do quite a bit of this production here in SLC as well.
More info here:
http://www.bdel.com/about/press.php#061606
Best Regards,
Jeff Maudlin
BDEL

Hi Jeff,
Would I be able to find out exactly what gear is manufactured in Salt Lake City?
Are C4, and C3's made in the USA? Stoppers, Hexes?
Thanks,
Gahan Haskins

Not very easily. We're doing (or planning on doing), many of the same styles both here and abroad. For the most part Stoppers, Hexes are still done (only) here but that is due to change. C3's the same. For C4s they are being done in both locales right now.

Note: There will ALWAYS be a very substantial amount of manufacturing done in SLC And the reason we're moving some product to China is not just for cost reasons - it's also to free up resources. It's also important to note that this is a BLACK DIAMOND manufacturing facility that happens to be in China - not just us outsourcing our gear.

Jeff

Jeff Maudlin (jeffm@bdel.com)
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com

Black Diamond Retail, Inc. (801) 278-5533 (phone)
2084 East 3900 South (801) 278-5544 (fax)
Salt Lake City, Utah 84124

Run for the hills! It's the COMMUNISTS! We've got to protect our Precious Bodily Fluids! What is this, 1964? Government propaganda goes both ways, folks.

There are plenty of better reasons to be anti-China than it's ostensibly communist government.

I do not think this is anything new. I am about 99% positive that my first set of C4's bought right after they were released said:

Made in China

What a bunch of needless sharpening of pitchforks.

'Amen' is not allowed in China.
but it is in Taiwan..........i wonder if BD understands the difference?