I was climbing up in boulder canyon this weekend and was just about to begin climbing when a guy next to my belayer mentioned this about belay loops:

"you should be belaying from the loop, not clipped into the waist/leg loops. it can load the carabiner in three places and break them." (which seemed a bit extreme-->wouldn't you're body break/move first?)

he was an outward bound instructor, so i figure he should know his shit.

I'm not married to either idea, i just want to be safe. My rationale for clipping into both the leg and waist loops was redundancy, which does not exist when you just clip into the belay loop.

what's the deal?

It always amazes me, just how controvercial this topic can be. I ran into someone the other day who was passionatly against the belay loop. Here's a quote from Black Diamonds website:

"When tying the climbing rope to your harness, always tie it to the waistbelt tie-in loop and leg loop cross piece correctly.
When using belay and rappel devices, they should only be attached to the belay loop."

Petzl has gone as far as to print a diagram on all of their belay loops this year showing the same information graphically.

but some people still insist on not using the belay loop.

I don't buckle my seatbelt very often, so I guess I shouldn't throw stones.

I'm for keeping the carabiner loaded in a straight line along the spine of the biner by using the belay loop.

If more redundancy is a concern, what you could do is have the belayer tie in on the back end of the rope with an eight retrace or high strength bowline; then clip the biner through the belayer's belay loop & rope.

Call me crazy, but I still can't stand using the belay loop. The carabiner flops around on it and frequently ends up crossloaded on the gate. What a hassle. Newer belay loops like those on Camp harnesses incorporate a little carabiner keeper loop to prevent this floppy $hit. Big plus. I'd use the loop with that. I do use the belay loop on multipitch climbs when I am hanging in the harness, as this tends to pin the carabiner down and/or you need some room to stack the rope over you. Lot's of people haven't warmed up yet to 100% belay loop usage. Don't hate us.

Not using the belay loop creates a tri-axial loading situation (loaded in more than 1 direction)on the carabiner, reducing it's strength to the minor axis rating (usually 7-9kN). A big leader fall can generate forces above 7 kN so there is potential to break the carabiner.

Another concern is the potential for the rope to catch on the gate of your locker which is the weakest point in the carabiner and also sharp enough to damage your rope. This is more likely when belaying directly through your harness as the carabiner is not free to move and the rope tends to "fall" across the gate. When belaying from your belay loop the biner "falls" with the rope reducing the chances of the rope catching on the gate.

Another practical consideration is that lowering or rappelling directly through your harness tends to twist up the rope leading to more rope snags and the like.

So use your belay loop, it is the strongest link in the chain.

I know when I started climbing I never used the belay loop. But what I did use for a locking carabiner though was a larger pear shape one, similar to one you would use with a munter hitch. However now I generally use the belay loop. But have also wondered about the benefits and drawbacks of either. I have not investigated per se but wonder what kind (style(s)) of carabiners have been tested and what kind of numbers were generated at the time of breakage.

This discussion crops up time and again. Black Diamond, Petzl, and Metolius all recommend attaching the locking carabiner to the belay loop and not the tie-in points:

From Black Diamond's "Instructions for Use for Technical Harnesses":

I was under the impression that the belay loop was the strongest part of your harness. I would always belay or rap off the belay loop for fear of crossloading your lockers. If worried about it being redundent you can girth hitch a 12 in runner through your two hard points or if multi pitch climbing and your already tied in then make sure you get the belay device locker through the belay loop and the loop in the rope where it ties into both your hard points. I would girth hitch the webbing if rapelling and your worried about what happened to skinner. This at least gives you a back up.
Cheerios!

I have a piece of webbing tied through my "2 points" to back up my belay loop. If anything it just makes me feel better :)

I have to say that I have thought quite a bit about gear loops, and, as much as I appreciate how strong they are, I have never really trusted them. I think this discussion is really thought-provoking, and it is causing me to rethink my attitude about them.

I just found this entry in Will Gadd's blog, which has added even more food for thought. There is also a link in there to Black Diamond's head of quality assurance, Kolin, who has some opinions on the subject.

Here's a comment from Ron derived from some other useful info:

using the belay loop & climbing rope for redundancy

IT IS THE MANUFACTURERS RECOMMENDATION THAT THE BELAY LOOP IS USED FOR BELAYING AND RAPPELLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why would you think that you know more than they do and use the harness in a way they don't recommend.

I am asked this question all the time and I will address another reason that is often over looked.

Belaying from the belay loop creates a better belay. The extra few inches that the atc will pull away from the body, creates better atc, rope, and carabiner orientation. It gives you more room to work with the device in front of you and not on you. More importantly it puts a better bend in the rope at the atc for more friction in arresting a fall. This is because the hand in it's natural breaking position is further behind the atc making a better bend of the rope. We all know that atc's work because of the friction provided in the bend of the rope, not our grip strength. When people belay from the triaxial setup, (Yes there is potential for triaxial loading when clipped through the crotch and waist loop,) Often times there atc is close to there hand and body and the device does not create as much of a bend in the rope for friction and requires more grip strength in the hand.

I am sure all you neah sayers out there who insist your way is better than the manufactures recommendation will argue that you have never had a problem arresting a fall that way. I believe you , I am sure you get adequate friction, but when you can make a good thing better and it costs you no more time and equipment to do it, then why not?

The belay loop is the strongest part of the harness,
So if this is true why don't we tie into the belay loop?

I am asked this question a bunch as well, but I have typed enough here and I don't want to open up another can of worms. But if all those people out there who know more than the manufactures want to know I can give you plenty of reasons.

"Perhaps Todd Skinner's death from belay loop failure on a worn-out harness has contributed to skepticism about the safety of belay loops. But I think it should foster an attitude of checking your gear, and retiring it well before its safety becomes questionable, rather than mistrusting a belay loop that's in good condition."

I have heard a few people refer to the pre-climb harness inspection as a "Skinner check". I've begun using the term myself--not to mock Todd or make light of his tragic death, but to honor the last lesson he taught us.

Check your rope and especially your slings frequently too. I've never found a wear problem with a harness, but I've retired a couple of slings that had significant damage that wasn't immediately evident.

I don't know what you'd do Ken...and no the Prow hasn't gone down, as I've been busying myself with other more worthy (read: doable) objectives. But I do belay off my belay loop.

BTW: "Belay loop" has belay in its name, so it must be ok for belaying. Duh.

P.S., I believe everything I read.

Happy Birthday Ken. You should be out climbing to celebrate.

I got a good pump yesterday. Today I am headed to Neptune Mountaineering to spend some money.

After the Skinner accident, I inspected my belay loop and all seemed fine. But then I noticed there was only two bar tacks on the loop.(Petzl corax) Most other harnesses have at least four. Since then I've been backing it up with a large locker. It can't cost much more to throw in a few more tacks. A lot of Petzls only have two.

I like the idea of a webbing loop backup. Haven't had any problems using an HMS locker but I'll probably do that. Probably won't buy another Petzl harness either.

-E

see above . . . a backup loop of webbing or cord through the hard points (such that its parallel to your belay loop) is clean and easy