By JPVallone
Oct 9, 2009
| rgold wrote: The use of a sequence of releasable stopper knots was mentioned in this context. Ignoring the substantial attention and handling problems such knots might cause for a child, I'd say the most likely effect of an accelerated knot hitting a child's hand would be to knock the hand off the rope. (Anyone who has had a simple rope kink nearly knock a rope out of their hands while rappelling or belaying will understand this supposition.) What this would mean is that the belay consists essentially of a bunch of stopper knots ten to fifteen feet apart, with the only genuinely effective role the child can perform being the untying of these knots as they approach the belay device. This sounds a lot to me like rope-soloing, which would be a better option if done in one of the standard ways, leaving the poor kid out of it altogether. I might add that there isn't much information about what happens when a stopper knot hits a belay device at speed. We do know that if the knot is already snugged up against the device, the result of a severe fall is often rope damage, specifically cutting and sometimes stripping a section of the sheath from the core.
Yes I agree with much of this, except if the belayer is untie these knots , they are still belaying, there is a back up to them losing the belay, A hand in the device, yeah that doesn't sound fun, but as you mentioned earlier you have seen kids in the gym get there hand pinched all the time, not the same as between a knot and device, but still painful and still enough to lose the brake. Using a friction hitch here instead could be ok, they would still be going through the belay motions and giving a real belay. I understand you oppose the idea period, you have brought valid reasons to the table for your beliefs and opinions, thanks for your contributions.
What type of terrain are we talking about though, I have mentioned being well below your limit and minimizing the risks by choosing the right environment. I think we are all starting to visualize the worst case scenario, Are we on a remote overhanging grade IV with big runouts and no communication where the forces of a leader fall are that extreme and the cosequences are that high. I have only suggested that a child can learn to do this, not that it should or shouldn't be done. How about Gina's surprise, if you fell on that you might just stop wear you are on that slab. plenty of gear everywhere, you can do any pitch length you choose. It doesn't even have to be 5th class climbing to have fun with kids and teach them something. Just don't let them belay when the consequences are too high and the risks are not worth it. Yes another adult would be wonderful . But some have suggested to just solo the route instead, In my opinion, thats worse, Daddy plummets in front of there child, Ouch, or the modeling and the example you set for the kid even worse. Kids love to immitate daddy, I know i did.
What is wrong with placing more gear, being on low angle high friction environments, being well with in your own limits and providing a wonderful experience for a child that is stoked on climbing.
Thanks for the interesting support to your posts gold
PS TDOG, is that all you got, That was some funny stuff, bring it | 
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By JPVallone
Oct 10, 2009
| TDOG
one more thing, I forgot to tell you how rad I think I am, I am so rad that as I sit here on the couch and type, my radometer is still redlining!!! You have no idea how rad I think I am. |
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By rgold
From Poughkeepsie, NY
Oct 10, 2009
| Michael and I have agreed to delete our posts.
Both of us believe that much care needs to be taken when children and sports, especially dangerous sports, are concerned. |
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By JPVallone
Oct 10, 2009
| rgold wrote: I am, for one. The questions are these: does the leader need a belay or not, if so, can the child really provide it, as opposed to paying out rope, and is the child equipped to deal with all consequences?
I take belays all the time that I don't need, I take them anyway because it is good modeling, I would much rather take a belay I don't need than take the risk of splatting in front of a child or any one for that matter.
Even if you don't need the belay, you are setting a good example and you are keeping the person involved as your partner. You are giving them something to do and maybe they do or don't do it well but they are being involved and getting practice, My two cents and only mine. |
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By JPVallone
Oct 10, 2009
| Michael John Gray wrote: I wonder how many people on this are parents. I think its our God given right to share climbing with our children. If someone can set a belay off a bomber anchor that wont weight the child and is climbing well below their lead limit whats the problem. I thought climbers had more respect for freedom and there fellow climbers ability to climb safe no matter thier age. I plan on taking my daughter climbing and certainly she is capable of climbing lead and belaying at a very young age safely. Cause hey they are our children and we are climbers. As circus children join the circus, snowboarder children ride hard, and kayaker children kayak young, surfer kids, 12 year olds climbing 5.14, a 12 year old girl sails around the world, youngsters should be locked in closets. Maybe some of these posters dont have passion and faith that young people can be better and safer than them even at 7!
I'm not a parent , but I agree with ya on this one and you all probablly think I am nuts but I do it with other peoples children. LOL |
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By John Maguire
From Boulder, CO
Oct 10, 2009
| Michael John Gray wrote: your a doosh nozzle. You butchered what I said and took it out of context. Damn dude, your good at thread slaying I have never been more freaking humored on this site. Your a riot! :-) keep up the good work tearing people down and making sure people know your right and can bs all the bser's... Good by thread God!
"You are" is abbreviated You're, not Your. |
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By Mark Cushman
From Erie, CO
Oct 10, 2009
| I am a parent and I also teach kids to climb at our local rock wall. I don't think kids develop the concentration, motor skills and strength to belay well enough until they are in high school. Most beginning adults struggle with belaying and I've had to catch (on backup) several people falling on toprope because their belayer failed to.
My firm theory is that children feel drunk all the time until they are about 10 years of age or so. If you a parent you'll understand this. Rich has provided some solid information on motor skills and reaction time, I agree with his arguments. Nobody said to not take your kid climbing, just that having them belay you wasn't a good idea. |
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By Mark Cushman
From Erie, CO
Oct 10, 2009
| Michael John Gray wrote: your a doosh nozzle. You butchered what I said and took it out of context. Damn dude, your good at thread slaying I have never been more freaking humored on this site. Your a riot! :-) keep up the good work tearing people down and making sure people know your right and can bs all the bser's... Good by thread God! i disagree. Jerk
Totally uncalled for. Nobody attacked you personally. |
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By Hank Caylor
Administrator
From Left Hand Canyon, CO
Oct 10, 2009
| HOLY CRAP!!!! This thread is gone!!!!! Let's keep it going. No amount of moderating will save it, but when the wife and I belay our Pug and Bull Mastiff. We use an ATC. FWIW....... |
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By PRRose
From Boulder
Oct 10, 2009
| Michael John Gray wrote: I wonder how many people on this are parents. I think its our God given right to share climbing with our children. If someone can set a belay off a bomber anchor that wont weight the child and is climbing well below their lead limit whats the problem. I thought climbers had more respect for freedom and there fellow climbers ability to climb safe no matter thier age. I plan on taking my daughter climbing and certainly she is capable of climbing lead and belaying at a very young age safely. Cause hey they are our children and we are climbers. As circus children join the circus, snowboarder children ride hard, and kayaker children kayak young, surfer kids, 12 year olds climbing 5.14, a 12 year old girl sails around the world, youngsters should be locked in closets. Maybe some of these posters dont have passion and faith that young people can be better and safer than them even at 7!
Your examples involve either (i) older children or (ii) activities that are within the scope of a younger child's cognitive and physical abilities, but that are not similar to belaying in any significant respect. I think you are confusing climbing itself (which is, of course, very similar in its cognitive and physical demands to kayaking, surfing, or boarding) with belaying.
I am a parent of three children, all now well older than seven. From a parenting perspective, I don't think passion and faith are an adequate substitute for good judgment, nor will they overcome physics. |
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By PRRose
From Boulder
Oct 10, 2009
| rgold wrote: The questions are these: does the leader need a belay or not, if so, can the child really provide it, as opposed to paying out rope, and is the child equipped to deal with all consequences?
This crystallizes the issue quite well. JPV's technique makes the child-belayer a not-belayer, since the climber is really relying on not falling in the first place and being held by a stopper knot as a backup. In fact, by interposing the child in the system, there is little increase in leader safety, while the child is subjected to potential injury in the event of a leader fall. That doesn't strike me as a reasonable balancing of risks.
Your second question has to, I think, be answered no in almost all cases involving young children. I'm sure every parent takes into account the risks of leading (especially when its essentially rope soloing) and tones down the difficulty-level when climbing with their kids. However, accidents involving strong climbers on moderate routes (Werk Supp and Empor, for example) are far from unknown, and it doesn't have to be a fatal fall to turn a nice day at the crags into a pretty bad one if the belayer is ill-equipped to lower a fallen climber (let alone execute anything more complicated).
I really don't understand the posters who think otherwise. The only thing I can think is that they have little or no experience with actual seven year-olds. |
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By JPVallone
Oct 10, 2009
| PRRose wrote: This crystallizes the issue quite well. JPV's technique makes the child-belayer a not-belayer, since the climber is really relying on not falling in the first place and being held by a stopper knot as a backup. In fact, by interposing the child in the system, there is little increase in leader safety, while the child is subjected to potential injury in the event of a leader fall. That doesn't strike me as a reasonable balancing of risks.
But soloing in front of them is a reasonable balance of risk instead, as suggested by gold and many others in here? |
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By Evan1984
Oct 10, 2009
| I've stayed out of this until now due to all the mud slinging, but I'm glad its calmed. I'm also confused. Is Mut Michael?
Anyway, I have extensive experience teaching children to belay and also working with children in school and academic settings. I see the issue of whether a child can belay as not only a physical skill issue, but also a developmental/maturity issue.
I feel that allowing children as young as 6 to TR belay is a great way to teach responsibility and involvement in the sport. That said, I do not think that a child should have the "responisbility" of belaying. I mean that there should alsways be a qualified adult on the ground to inspect the belay setup, coach through and watch the child's belay technique, and ALWAYS have a hand on the break end as a back up. I have seen older children(12ish) get professional belay instruction and be cut loose to TR belay eachother. I will say that most of them did not have the skills that would make me confident being belayed by them. But, I am glad that they are being taught the skills, I just think there needs to be close supervision.
My choice of equipment would be the same as with any learning belayer: helmet, tube style belay device, ground anchor, and no gloves. A tube style device gives tactile feedback. The belayer can feel when he is releasing/adding friction and this gives them a better understanding of the device's proper use. A grigri/cinch does not give tactile feedback until the cam is released, but requires the belayer to add friction for safe lowering. This combo has been catastrophic. Gloves limit the tactile feedback and many people let rope slip through their hands with gloves.
I personally feel that lead climb belaying is inappropriate until around ages 14,15,16 because of the added skill of catching a lead fall and mental requiements. And then only if weight differentials are not huge. A lead fall is violent and can be uncomfortable for the belayer. A less mature child might let go for this reason. Also, lead falls are scary and children have unpredictable reactions to fear. It would be aweful for a 7 year old to be terrified that dad is hurt with no one to reassure her or coach her through the process.
Anyway, ages of course are relative and every child is different. I personally feel most children don't have the develpmental maturity to handle a complex and dangerous system without supervision until their mid teens(kinda like a driver's license). I do not think it is fair to make a child bear the responsibility of something they are not mentally/emotionally able to synthesize regardless of their physical capability to do so.
Mut, good on you for wanting to involve your children. Just keep in mind that everyone is concerned for your safety and try to take others' input as just that, input.
Cheers,
Evan |
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By springs
Oct 10, 2009
| Haha! Classic thread.
"Looking for some advice"
"YOU'RE A NOOB!"
Typical internetz climbing ego. Seems like the people that give advice on here are the ones that are... always online. Classic. |
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By Tim C
From Lakewood, CO
Oct 10, 2009
| Most of the post seem pretty constructive to me, the posts that aren't one liners.
Also seems that most people are agreeing over the same thing, which I also agree with. The main thing that people are pointing out and others are ignoring is the worst case scenario.
One side is pointing out: IF you were to fall and get hurt badly, is the child capable of handling the technical situation and emotional stress. The other side is saying they are going to be climbing something easy and won't fall or get hurt.
Seems like a bad way to approach it by taking the best case scenario. Crap happens some time, and that is what everyone should be prepared to handle. |
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By JPVallone
Oct 10, 2009
| Evan1984 wrote: I've stayed out of this until now due to all the mud slinging, but I'm glad its calmed. Anyway, I have extensive experience teaching children to belay and also working with children in school and academic settings. Cheers, Evan
Welcome to the discussion, but be careful with backing your opinion with your experience, you might get an earful from TDOG, LOL
Welcome aboard |
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By JPVallone
Oct 10, 2009
| Tim C wrote: IF you were to fall and get hurt badly, is the child capable of handling the technical situation and emotional stress. Crap happens some time, and that is what everyone should be prepared to handle.
Not totally sure, but I would bet that there are more adults out there than you think that can't do this either, yet they are out there doing it all the time.
I had a child age 13 in an avalanche course, I put a beacon in her hand for the first time , she located her first search in about 2 minutes with no prior instruction. Most of the adults in the class had there own beacons and I was still showing some of them how to turn them on. And there searches were no where close to the performance of the girls. I have seen adults in the backcountry with probes still in the wrapper and beacons that they have only read the instructions to but never practiced with.
I think Kids deserve more credit and responsibility than society tends to leash them on. Not all kids for sure, but there are some really bright ones out there that are very capable. I see no problem with teaching them early with close supervision and over time giving them more and more independence with experience and evaluation. And most important a proper terrain progression, with minimal consequences and more control of the variables. With A very good evaluation of the risk acceptance and risk for rewards. I have mentioned it earlier and I still think you can take this education in baby steps with experience, I think there are low risk environments and terrain thats within the limits of the instructor that allow this.
I Don't support the approach of happy birthday son, your 10 years old now, Thats the number, your ready to be a man now. Daddy's gonna teach to you to belay today. It seems folks in here are trying to put an age limit on belaying? It's not like getting your drivers license and it shouldn't be. Different kids and it's individually based are all capable of different tasks at different ages, In my opinion I don't think it is fair to put an age on when it's ok to belay. |
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By Evan Simons
From Boulder CO
Oct 10, 2009
| Ya know, there's a mini article in the newest Urban Climber about how the Gri Gri was inspired by Peter Popall wanting a belay device that his 10 year old son could safely use... uh duh. And not having read hardly any of this thread, I'll just say that tying in at a ground belay, which seems to be "un cool" these days, will spare a child a wild ride into the rock if his much heavier partner on lead falls. Strength has no play in the use of an auto locking device. |
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By Michael John Gray
From Albany, NY
Oct 11, 2009
| Sorry everybody... not like me to be so defensive. I talked to Ron and it seems we agree and are cool. I am a really nice guy and hope that I wont be judged by this. My ex took my daughter from me at birth from Colorado to NY, just went through a really tough costody battle, and now I am more broke than I can imagine. Hope there are no hard feelings. I love mountain project and the people on here. I hope that people can understand and that I felt attacked cause im sensitive about parenting and took it the wrong way. Whats done is done, and I am truly sorry... I do agree that when climbing with children great care should be taken. We need to be resoponsible.. very! Thanks Michael |
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