Mut.
Please don't get belayed by your child. Its bad for access.
Sam
PS: were you married to Shania Twain and did you produce Back in Black?

I certainly appreciate the kind words of several of the posters, but I also think everyone's posts should be evaluated primarily on the basis of their content. It is true that I am experienced (51 years of climbing to be precise) and both up-to-date about technical matters and reasonably qualified to evaluate them (Ph D in math), but in the end my opinions are just that, and after all I am no less subject to errors and lurking bias than many other climbers with experience.

And speaking of lurking bias, a considerable part of my unease in the current discussion stems from philosophical qualms about exposing children, who are incapable of evaluating risk and arriving at decisions regarding it, to the kind of voluntarily accepted dangers climbing presents. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done---I have climbed with my own daughter when she was a child---but I think that doing this involves very serious moral issues that every parent ought to think through with as much clarity as they can muster.

I'm not going to preach any approach here, other than to urge anyone who decides to take a child into potentially dangerous situations outdoors to strive for the very best risk management obtainable, and to think with great care about how they will explain the consequences of worst-case scenarios to themselves, to significant others, and to the authorities.

From this perspective, no number of ingenious yet still questionable back-up procedures, each with its own set of potential problems and drawbacks, comes anywhere near the safety level of simply having another experienced adult along. The fact that it is possible to set up ever more complicated systems (and we know that complication breeds, among other things, unanticipated failure modes) is really irrelevant. If belaying the leader is called for, than I think that task should be handled by a competent adult.

Added in edit: If we are going to throw qualifications around, then it is worth noting that JP Vallone has IFMG certification.

The aftermath will more than likely end up here:


http://www.darwinawards.com/

I don't get what the dig deal is with never having used a gri-gri. I've never needed one. And I am looking into trying a different type of device, but before I go drop $80, or whatever they cost, i thougth i'd solicit some comments from a climbing site. You do know that stores don't let you retun gear after it is used? What is your suggestion? That I buy a few different devices and then determine which one I like and junk the others?

And really, what is wrong with an 8? I've used different atc's and the ones I have seen friends use, wear down quick, the little wire loop that holds it on the beener breaks over time and some seem to leave lots of aluminum on the rope. I have climbed plenty of routes from 30-3000+ ft, rappeled miles of vertical, caught countless lead falls and never had any problem with my 8. And they last forever. Next you'll give me shit for using my original hexes or using rigid friends when I run out of aliens on desert cracks or only use my 10 year old caulkanators with multiple resouls. I have always believed in the quote, "It's not the hammer, it's the carpenter." Will an atc make me climb better? Will it make me pay more attention when belaying? Will it work any better if I lower a pig off a wall or participate in a rescue?

And as for the comments and +1's that I didn't like some supposed guru's advice (rgold)... I guess I missed the annotation next to his name letting me know that he knows jack shit about climbing, has been climbing for 40+ years, or any other indication that I should blindly follow his advice. Who said I liked or disliked what I heard from rgold(whoever that is). I guess i get a -1 in ESP for failing to realize the typed letters on my screen came from... wait...wait...(drumroll please) RGOLD (clouds part, sunrays beat down, rainbow over the valley). I said the 46 posts were mostly retarded. That means some were not. Some were helpfull. Some were dumb, like Saxfiend pointing out that I don't know who sits behind a screen name (Saxfiend, go blow something).

I get that most of you who have posted don't think a young kid can belay safely. I disagree. It depends on the kid, their experience and their training/practice.

I'm really a nice guy. I am safe, i like to play outside (with my kids) and I tried to get some gear help in the gear forum. Please don't lose sleep over the idea that some newbie who looked for input from strangers is going to go out, hurt himslef or his kid, casue a scene, end up in the news with bad press and get some climbing area shut down. Thats not going to happen. what will happen is that I wil go climb with my kid. We will have an epic day climbing and being goofy, and she will write all about it in her little 2nd grade journal.

To all of you, have a great weekend.

Mut

Joe,

You're right in that my tone was decidedly not conciliatory but that's because I took your tone to be fairly aggressive and condescending. I have no qualms with you personally and would enjoy sharing a beer or four and telling stories about climbing and our mutual friends. Actually, I do have one qualm, we raced to the base of the Casual Route once and you won.... you dog. :)


You say that you weren't picking on me personally and that may be correct but you were definitely picking on people in this discussion who thought it might not be a good idea to have a 7 year old belayer... (which included me)

You wrote things like...

"If you think it can't be done, you don't know enough about minimizeing risk and increasing security with your tools to do this, So for you folks that think it can't be done, don't put in your two cents because it can."

Does that statement not fit the definition of calling someone ignorant?

It's now apparent that part of our disconnect was because you hadn't read the whole thread carefully and thought we were talking about top roping. No big deal, we all read a lot of threads and miss stuff. However, when someone tells me or a group that includes me that they shouldn't put in their two cents, I tend to become more aggressive in my tone. It is a public forum after all and all opinions should be welcome in the discussion.


I would also add that I have nothing against guides or the AMGA. I made that comment because you said...

"Hire a guide, I am sure he or she can show some tricks and provide more accurate and acceptable techniques and advice then this forrum."

Was that comment not a dig on this very forum? Obviously the AMGA folks know their stuff and, in my opinion, their organization represents the gold-bar standard in the US for climbing knowledge/skills. My sarcastic comment was intended to show that there are other sources of information that have value equal to that of the AMGA. Some of those sources are people who post here on this forum.

It's all good though, we're just having an online discussion. :)

Cheers,
Brad


PS. I completely agree with the thoughts rgold expressed in his most recent post.

Man, Poor guy just opened an acct two days ago and already got nailed to the wall. Typical MP....

Brad

Thanks for clearing that up Brad, Ok, I was maybe aggressive in my words in my original post, but I did not imply that people were ignorant or at least that was not my intention. I just knew some stuff about the topic, and I do believe it can be done "my opinion" And I only read that it couldn't and shouldn't be done. There is a certain level of acceptable risk we are all willing to take at different levels. As no one shares the same level of risk that we are willing to take, We all should ask what are the risks for the rewards and weigh that heavily before entering it.

I am still learning everyday and much to seek still. I surround myself with amazing people who I just try to sponge myself and absorb whatever I can. I am nowhere close to done learning new ways.

I said hire a guide, but I in no way connected it with the AMGA, there are amazing guides out there that will never go through that process. My statement just suggested go to someone with more experience than you to see what other ideas are out there. I would argue that Guides may not be the best climbers, but do in most cases know there systems and how to minimize, and evaluate risk. You don't have to be a guide to do that. But I would also argue that a guide might be able to help with the topic because most deal with the OP's situation quite a bit.

Thanks for chiming back in

TO QUOTE AND ANSWER SOME OF MUT's comments

I don't get what the dig deal is with never having used a gri-gri. I've never needed one. And I am looking into trying a different type of device, but before I go drop $80, or whatever they cost, i thougth i'd solicit some comments from a climbing site."

There is no big deal that you haven't used one, but they are everywhere, so maybe use someones and try it out for yourself and form your own opinion, maybe it is the tool you seek for the variables of your applications, I don't know, but try before you buy.

"And really, what is wrong with an 8?"

Nothing is wrong with an 8, but there is a better tool for your daughter.

"I have climbed plenty of routes from 30-3000+ ft, rappeled miles of vertical, caught countless lead falls and never had any problem with my 8."

Thats wonderful,

"I have always believed in the quote, "It's not the hammer, it's the carpenter." Will an atc make me climb better? Will it make me pay more attention when belaying? Will it work any better if I lower a pig off a wall or participate in a rescue?"

YES to your question for your daughter, and I agree with hammer statement, You don't want to put a screw in with a hammer, Right tool for the job, so give your daughter a better tool than the 8

"And as for the comments and +1's that I didn't like some supposed guru's advice (rgold)... I guess I missed the annotation next to his name letting me know that he knows jack shit about climbing, has been climbing for 40+ years, or any other indication that I should blindly follow his advice. Who said I liked or disliked what I heard from rgold(whoever that is). I guess i get a -1 in ESP for failing to realize the typed letters on my screen came from... wait...wait...(drumroll please) RGOLD (clouds part, sunrays beat down, rainbow over the valley)."

I don't know who he is either, but I think the nature of these forums will always have people that will disagree or agree with you and that is the idea of a forum, to get opinions and ideas. So you have to be willing to accept that. If you feed the matter you will get power washed with it, Kind of like me for chiming in here, so being new here, your above statement will get you lynched, There are hungry people in here that can't wait to lay into people.

"I get that most of you who have posted don't think a young kid can belay safely. I disagree. It depends on the kid, their experience and their training/practice."

NO I agree with you here, and I posted my opinon and it is circumstantial and there are many variables that effect my decision to do it.

"Please don't lose sleep over the idea that some newbie who looked for input from strangers is going to go out, hurt himslef or his kid, casue a scene, end up in the news with bad press and get some climbing area shut down. Thats not going to happen."

I don't think anyone has implied this. You asked for opinons , you got them, thats the way it works here.

And finally I will post in the next thread here is some food for thought and why your daughter and potentially you might be better off with a device besides an 8 IN MY OPINION



Mut

Reasons why there might be a better choice than and 8 for his daughter, in my opinion


How do belay devices work?
Belaying devices use a combination of friction and pinching to produce a braking effect on the rope and a
device’s design dictates which effect will predominate upon loading. Devices relying principally on friction (e.g.
Figure-of-8) will tend to be smooth running and are entirely reliant on the belayer reacting quickly by providing a
controlling force on the rope and thereby forcing it into the optimum braking configuration.
Devices producing a strong pinch effect will tend to grab the rope and lock up under load. They also require
skilled use particularly when paying out rope but are ‘helpful’ to the belayer when dealing with high forces or
unexpected falls. Flat plate devices such as the Stitch plate, whilst giving a braking effect via friction, also give
strong pinch effects when loaded and correctly operated.
Some devices have very little friction element and operate solely by pinching or camming the rope, a typical
example being the GriGri.

Intermediate, Slick, Grabbing and Locking devices:

Slick: Such devices rely principally on friction to provide braking. Devices of this type allow smooth, quick rope
feed and are less likely to jam when rope is being paid out. They require more care on the part of the belayer in
applying and maintaining a controlling force when arresting a fall or during a lower.

Example: Figure 8, ATC

Intermediate: Devices neither particularly slick nor grabbing. Good general purpose devices.
Example: Sprung Stitch Plate.

Grabbing: A device giving a sharp braking effect when suddenly loaded. Likely to be pinching devices. Care
needs to be taken to ensure smooth rope feed, otherwise may jam. Have a tendency to lock up easily. Effective
at holding falls which may not be anticipated by the belayer and or where a high controlling force is required.

Example: Flat Stitch.

Locking devices: Are not friction based but rather lock the rope via a camming action. Ability to hold falls not
dependent on controlling force of the belayer. To be effective they require load to be applied
Rapidly and should not be regarded as automatic devices. Tend to be particularly sensitive to rope diameter.
Although effective in holding a fall, require care and skill in use particularly when lowering. Example: GriGri.
Devices which can provide some frictional braking but reconfigure to lock under load by a pinching action are a
subset of the category.

Appropriate use
So belaying devices act in different ways and can be described as shown in the box. But how do you select the
appropriate device for a particular use? You need to look at the factors that are likely to come into play during use and choose a device that is going to give the best performance in these circumstances. Here are some
suggestions.



The following factors would suggest the use of a grabbing device:
Heavyweight Lead Climber
Inexperienced Belayer
Thin ropes
Quick rope feed not essential

The following would suggest the use of a slick device:
Thick or stiff ropes
Experienced attentive belayer
Quick rope feed essential
Icy ropes

The following factors would suggest the use of a locking device:
Experienced belayer with knowledge of the device
Solid runners and belay
Quick rope feed not essential
‘Working’ routes
Single rope

Choosing the right device reduces the chance of an accident whilst belaying or lowering and makes for
smoother climbing. However any device needs to be properly operated in order to be effective and so make
sure you know how to use the device, pay attention and remember your partner is relying on you.

Hey Mutt:

8s don't last forever. They wear out, too. I don't let anyone use an 8 on my ropes as they put the twist of death into the rope on any rap. Also, you can return used gear you bought via REI, no questions asked. These statements lead me to discount much of what you say. IMHO you should bring another adult along and have the kid climb in the middle. What if you get hurt? Then what? Does the kid know how to self-rescue? I seriously doubt it. You shouldn't put a child with limited experience in that sort of situation. Accidents do happen, and some times at the worst times. Please reconsider.

Don't you think that part of helping each other includes pointing out mistakes and poor judgment? Quote JL

You bet! I just don't see why the majority of people need to respond with negativity, or in a condescending tone.

If you're talking about me, I'm sorry to hear that. I don't think I was at all unreasonable; what did I post that you thought was out of line? Should administrators just always agree with anything anyone says? Quote JL

No disrespect, but I didn't see were you added anything of substance, or answer the original question. Just emotional responses.

Mut,

Sorry about the challenges of posting a thread...but it is a place to get a variety of responses and inevitably some will be testy with controversial subjects.

First, the average climber will probably respond with "what...?"

Second, I've got 7, 11, & 13 year olds. Yes, kids can belay. My older 2 belay. All 3 have started climbing at ages 2-4. My youngest has pretended to belay, she's pretty sharp for her age, but she does not belay for real. Still, she's at most 65 lbs. I would not want her to belay. My older 2 have started to belay each other on TRs with adult backup. Now, my oldest, all of at most 90 lbs, belays independently on TRs. My kids use tubers/ATC like devices.

Third, I've climbed a couple decades with all sorts of folks of all sorts of experience. Yeah, you can have just about anyone belay. You can control things to a point, but you probably know you have to think of it as soloing if you have a novice belay. I get what you are saying, my years of climbing exceed my lead falls. My challenge with leading with any kid belayer is what would I be doing to their development as a climber if something bad did happen...or worse I actually fell and I landed on my belayer or knocked something onto my belayer. You know it takes a while to get all the issues with belaying, climbing, and managing the gear all down smoothly enough that you can have a positive experience. The responsibilities of belaying weighs heavily on them. You want your kid(s) to have positive experiences.

Fourth, figure 8s are good. I've used them lots, I don't recommend them for a novice anymore. The challenge I've seen is novices (and even intermediate climbers) tend to have the rope kink with 8s, enough so that I don't want a novice dealing with that while gaining the experience to belay safely.

Fifth, what my plan is for my kids is for them to get lots of mileage before they are doing all the parts of lead belaying, cleaning, and climbing on a multipitch route independently. We climb such climbs with additional adult(s).

Sixth, I've seen what happened with my unanchored wife on two controlled lead falls with her less than 2/3's my weight. She went flying into the rock but caught me. It's not something I want for my kids yet.

Last, we have a Gri-gri. It's complicated enough for adult intermediate climbers to use well. They've tried it. I don't use it with my kids.

So, my recommendation if you are out with your kid: have an adult belay or rope solo the route(s), have her stand well to the side of the route, let her grow up slowly (it's not lame), and let her have fun.

http://mountainproject.com/v/extended_trips_and_internationa>>>>>

i read that thread after reading about Gerald Myers' disappearance on Denali. apparently, he chose to ignore the very good, supportive advice he was given by experienced mountaineers. sad.

if you don't want advice from others, don't ask. and, if you ask, consider the fact that (among the noise and lack of etiquette typical of the intarwebz) you may be getting advice you should listen to.

As far as the maturity of an eight-year old belayer, the following quotes from Human hand function, Lynette A. Jones and Susan J. Lederman may be relevant:

The conduction velocity of these corticospinal axons...does not reach the adult values of 50-70 m/s until the child is around 8 years of age. (p 150.) In other words, eight-year olds are just arriving at adult reaction times (and may or may not be there in any one particular case).

In summary, the control of prehensile force in children undergoes considerable refinement as the sensory and motor systems develop, but it is not until the age of 11--15 years that the anticipatory control of grip force reaches maturity. (p. 170.) (This is worth comparing to the grip statistics mentioned below, which showed a near-doubling of grip strength from age 8 to age 14.)

It is not easy to find studies of children's gripping strength with the data available for free. One such is http://www.isbaron.com/gripstrength.html. The table includes two studies and indicates that eight-year olds might be expected to have grip strength around 12 kgf (I was obliged to infer the units by comparing these numbers with some other studies.) This number translates to about 118 N (not kN!) or about 26 lbf. (As mentioned above, grip strength more or less doubles in the next six years.)

An ATC-XP with a low-10mm rope provides a force-multiplying factor of about 7.5 , giving rise to a breaking power of roughly 195 lbf for our 8 year-old. The force multiplier for a figure eight would be more in line with the original Reverso, which I think had a multiplier of about 5, giving a breaking power of less than 130 lbf. (This only works in a gym because of the friction added aroud the top-rope pipes.) Fall forces arriving at the belayer higher than these very modest numbers will cause slippage, after a brief "inertial" effect of pulling the braking hand up to the belay plate and slightly raising the belayer.

All this suggests that if an eight-year old is called upon to hold almost any type of leader fall in the field, there will be considerable rope slippage at the belay. Anyone who puts a child of this age in this position should be aware of the fact that the rope is likely be pulled through the child's hand if there is a leader fall, and has to be comfortable with the implications of that eventuality for both the child and the leader.

The use of a sequence of releasable stopper knots was mentioned in this context. Ignoring the substantial attention and handling problems such knots might cause for a child, I'd say the most likely effect of an accelerated knot hitting a child's hand would be to knock the hand off the rope. (Anyone who has had a simple rope kink nearly knock a rope out of their hands while rappelling or belaying will understand this supposition.)

What this would mean is that the belay consists essentially of a bunch of stopper knots ten to fifteen feet apart, with the only genuinely effective role the child can perform being the untying of these knots as they approach the belay device. This sounds a lot to me like rope-soloing, which would be a better option if done in one of the standard ways, leaving the poor kid out of it altogether.

I might add that there isn't much information about what happens when a stopper knot hits a belay device at speed. We do know that if the knot is already snugged up against the device, the result of a severe fall is often rope damage, specifically cutting and sometimes stripping a section of the sheath from the core.

EGOs on MP on overload.



Mut: Hi, I want advice.

JPV: I got all the advice you'll ever need. I am a 12 year guide.

Brig: Don't do it.

RG: Top Rope it.

JPV: Look at me I am real cool. I am a 12 year guide.

BD: Do it man. Have fun.

JPV: I am a 12 year guide. Old school v new school. AMGA. GRI GRI, GRI GRI.

JPV: I know how to do it right and I will tell you. Maybe twice. Don't fall.

SAX: Those who are oldest know best.

Mut: Really??

JPV: I am not old. I do know best. Did I say I was a 12 year guide?? Better say it twice.

JPV: I am so cool. I am a Jedi. I don't fall. EVER !! I solo for chicks and money.

Mut: I didn't really mean it. HAHA ;)

JR: (funny pic)

PRR: I don't know what to believe.

Mut: You guys are mean. Get a life. Sorry I asked.

JPV: But listen to me. I am SUPER COOL and like to tell you. I am a 12 year guide. Do it my way or die.

JPV: MEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEME, ect.

MM: Wish my dad took me climbing.

JPV: I am your father.

AS: Wierd.

JPV: Realy!! I don't fall. But I place LOTS of gear......... just in case.

Mut: JK later

Sam: Love not War

JPV: Your a nOOb. But I will teach you to be cool as me. I am a jedi climber and SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO COOL.

Well said TDog

This is how your kid develops a good brake grip; you can even get a good start well before you get to the crag:

I found that taking my son for a ride was more effective than corporal punishment Submitted By: Mike Lane on Oct 22, 2008

TDOG

No I think the real rad guy is you,

About 10 days on the site under a fake name, I have used my real name something you are scared to do so you can entertain yourself and here yourself speak. I have contributed to the thread at hand with thought provoking concepts and idea, No concrete ways. I mentioned my guide experience not for egos sake and I have in no way said My way is best and this is it. And it is something I was called on in here before I mentioned it because all of a sudden how long you climbed for or did this and that became important to some to listen to an opinion. I only mentioned it once because people asked me how you can do the objective at hand, or how I have done it. Once again I don't do this on crazy huge remote and commited climbs at or above my limit as mentioned earlier. I contributed to the topic based on things I have seen been taught and applied. I have humbley said I dont know it all and I too am just making my opinion. I too make mistakes and learn from them. The definition of insanity is makeing the same mistake twice and expecting different resulty.

I know you have another name on here, Be a man and use it before you make a senseless bash on here when folks are debating and contributing to an interesting topic.

Yes you fueled my response, you got what you wanted, you are trolling, You fed me. but get a life, your claims are a twist of my words,

God, it sucks having a broken toe, because I am so bored and love climbing so much, And its cold and snowy to boot up here. but I am sucked into being a part of this, For the love of climbing . I am one of those folks who likes to debate not for the sake of arguing but for the sake of show me why I am wrong and teach me something. I think this thread is full of solid opinions and as with all scenarios there will always be pros and cons and different ways to do things, Those of you that have provided those, thanks, still an interesting topic to me.

PS, your post is funny though, I can laugh at myself, Can you, Oh no wait you can't even show yourself

I am a father of four climbing kids, 7, 10, 13, 15. It is a bad idea under any circumstances to have a 7 y.o. belay a grown man. I would never put my 7 y.o. in a position of that must potential responsibility.

• IMHO*