By Wade Frank
From Littleton, CO
Oct 8, 2009
| I found this on the rock'n and jam'n site. Looks like they are willing to teach kids who are 8 to belay. Mut, it might be worth finding out what deviced they teach the kids to use and any pros and cons.
KIDS-CAN-BELAY-TOO: A comprehensive series of ongoing classes for kids 8-11 years old.
No requirements necessary.
WHEN : RJ1 - Fridays 4-6 PM; RJ2 - Fridays 6-8 PM
Call for starting dates
COST : $250 for semester (sixteen classes)
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By JPVallone
Oct 8, 2009
| It is very much possible to have a kid of this age belay, People that say otherwise don't know how to minimize the risk and increase friction in the system , incorporate ground anchors and give good instructions and build the belayer in a nice progression.
Good coaching, supervision and modeling and you can easily teach a kid to belay, I weigh 150, but I have enough experience and techniques to figure out how to belay someone 3 or 4 times my weight if I have too. I have belayed 400 lb blind people, yes blind 400lb folks, If you think it can't be done, you don't know enough about minimizeing risk and increasing security with your tools to do this, So for you folks that think it can't be done, don't put in your two cents because it can.
As far as teaching people to belay on a gri gri for the first time or more security, You are teaching poor habits and belay techniques to beginers, That is not the answer and bad habits are hard to break. A gri gri is an advanced tool for advanced belayers. Learn to be a better instructor and teach proper habits for life.
If you think a child cant belay because they don't have the grip strength to maintain the belay, well then choose the right tools and pick the right device. Many ways to increase friction to the point were I could hold a 400lb person in my teath if I had to. This is not rocket science, but with experience will come the tools, if you don't know the tools, then don't belay with your 8 year old. Hire a guide, I am sure he or she can show some tricks and provide more accurate and acceptable techniques and advice then this forrum. |
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By Brad Brandewie
Oct 8, 2009
| JPVallone wrote: It is very much possible to have a kid of this age belay, People that say otherwise don't know how to minimize the risk and increase friction in the system , incorporate ground anchors and give good instructions and build the belayer in a nice progression.
Whew... I'm glad to hear that it's only my ignorance that prevents a 7 year old from having the skills (attention span, strength, and ability to problem solve an unforeseen situation) that are recommended for belaying a lead climber that out weighs them by a factor of 4.
"So for you folks that think it can't be done, don't put in your two cents because it can."
Will you let us know when we can offer an opinion?
Can and should are two different things. Who cares if you can belay a blind elephant to the top of something? You're a guide. We're talking about a 7 year old.
"This is not rocket science, but with experience will come the tools, if you don't know the tools, then don't belay with your 8 year old. Hire a guide, I am sure he or she can show some tricks and provide more accurate and acceptable techniques and advice then this forrum."
Wow, your right again of course. The only acceptable advice in rock climbing comes from AMGA certified professionals.
I am curious as to how many of the folks here let their kids lead belay them when their child was 7?
Cheers,
Brad |
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By saxfiend
Administrator
From Atlanta, GA
Oct 8, 2009
| JPVallone wrote: It is very much possible to have a kid of this age belay, People that say otherwise don't know how to minimize the risk and increase friction in the system ,
Given the choice between this and Rich Goldstone's advice, I'll listen to rgold every time. I expect that after 40+ years of climbing, he knows a little bit about friction and risk, and a few other things as well.
JL |
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By JPVallone
Oct 8, 2009
| Brad Brandewie wrote: Whew... I'm glad to hear that it's only my ignorance that prevents a 7 year old from having the skills (attention span, strength, and ability to problem solve an unforeseen situation) that are recommended for belaying a lead climber that out weighs them by a factor of 4. "So for you folks that think it can't be done, don't put in your two cents because it can." Will you let us know when we can offer an opinion? Can and should are two different things. Who cares if you can belay a blind elephant to the top of something? You're a guide. We're talking about a 7 year old. "This is not rocket science, but with experience will come the tools, if you don't know the tools, then don't belay with your 8 year old. Hire a guide, I am sure he or she can show some tricks and provide more accurate and acceptable techniques and advice then this forrum." Wow, your right again of course. The only acceptable advice in rock climbing comes from AMGA certified professionals. Cheers, Brad
Brad, not fair, I did not pick on you, Tone it down, nobody is attacking anyone.
Didnt call you ignorant either.
For starters you are talking about a lead belay, I am not. It was not the intended question from the op from what I got. And yes I have been belayed by first time belayers around that age on lead climbs, I don't recommend it unless you know how to keep yourself safe, but I know how to back myself up, and yes even on lead, my belayer could lose the belay all together and I would stay off the ground, and it is not by using a gri gri.
The AMGA has nothing to do with this, but I will say they do know what they are talking about and probablly spend more time testing and researching techniques and staying up with current standards and ideas. But that has nothing to do with this, So you can go off on them all you want and bash what you don't understand, but I am not here to waste my time arguing with you. Or defend the AMGA, You brought them up not me, Re read your post and listen to yourself. that is not my place nor is it this forums, If the OP wants to email, I will gladly give you some advice towards helping you out with some ideas on how to approach this.
If Brad feels he needs to explain his opinion on the AMGA and what guides might or might not know , please start it in another thread, But I don't think I will waste my time with someone that can give opinions but only bash others.
I think you should re phrase your question about when can you give your opinion, Because your the one that not open to opinions, so I throw the question back, Either let me know when I can give mine, I do know this topic well and do have some tricks. Or better yet, I will email you my next post so you can proof it for me and let me know if its ok before you rant on it.
As far as 8 years old go, What a great time to start, especially if involved in the sport. Muscle memory is amazing, Look at piano players that start at that age, Most of you maybe took a lesson or two at that age, you can't play the piano anymore but you still remember that one little melody and you can always bust it out on the piano. Kids have an amazing ability to learn and remember at that age, It is much easier to teach a kid to do something that has never learned it than it is to teach an adult in my experience, Teach them now while there is no bad habits. |
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By Wayne
From Superior, CO
Oct 8, 2009
| I've seen some summer climbing camps have kids belaying other kids, but they always have 2 kids belaying, one as a backup belayer. Lots of kids this age and older get distracted easily (some adults do to, but that's another topic), so they like to have 2 belaying.
Sometimes they will have older kids (16+) belay by themselves, and I have asked the staff about having younger kids belay and they indicated that there were a couple they would trust, but not most.
Another issue to think about - What if you do get hurt, would you want your daughter to live with the guilt? |
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By JPVallone
Oct 8, 2009
| saxfiend wrote: Given the choice between this and Rich Goldstone's advice, I'll listen to rgold every time. I expect that after 40+ years of climbing, he knows a little bit about friction and risk, and a few other things as well. JL
Well Rich is talking about a lead belay, very different application, but just teaching someone to belay a traditional top rope, there are many ways to do it, I do it all the time, and yes for a living, I am not getting defensive here, and I like the tone of your post saxfield, but I just think it is very possible to do this with some precautions and many easy applicable back ups, its not hard.
As for the amount of time climbing verses knowledge, I dont know anything about Rich Goldstone, but thats great 40 years, There are old climbers and bold climbers, but no old bold climbers, Mike Donahue taught me that. Butamount of years climbing has nothing to do with modern techniques and maybe different ways of doing it.
I just taught a guides course to someone who has been guiding for 35 years, twice as long as I have even been a climber, I was intimidated and thought what could I teach this guy, He was overwhelemed, Been doing it the same way for 35 years, and filled his note book. Just saying, Experience is knowledge, but so is reading current literature and being open to knew techniques, Look what happened to the skiing industry, The teenagers are pushing the sport by taking what the old have left and building on it. I am not saying I know the best way, there are a million ways to skin the cat, but I do my best to stay up to times and keep my self in tune with many trainings a year and staying up to date on techniques and ideas for dealing with the ops concern and much more. Knowledge is like star wars, young apprentice, jedi knights, Jedi's, and Jedi Masters, I keep looking for my Yoda, and keep finding them and working with them and surrounding myself with them, unfortunately my Yoda's keep getting killed in the mountains, but have left me with much to learn, practice and pass on. |
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By BobDergay
From Eldorado
Oct 8, 2009
| Wow... I bet the seven year old doesn't whine as much as that Brad guy.... |
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By goatboywonder
From Estes Park, CO
Oct 8, 2009
| Wow, I can't decide if this is a troll or not. I mean a 7yo TR belaying is one thing but taking a 7yo up a multi-pitch route as your partner? What if the sh!t hits the fan? |
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By JPVallone
Oct 8, 2009
| Food for thought, don't know the exact ages they were, was it 16 and 15, might of been younger, but Tommy Caldwell and Austin Wallace were the youngest team to climb the diamond. I wonder how old Tommy was when Mike let Tommy belay or taught him to belay, And Mike was and still is a damn good guide and a wonderful teacher.
Austin you around? how is texas, Miss climbing with ya |
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By Brigette
From Tucson, Arizona
Oct 8, 2009
| JPVallone wrote: For starters you are talking about a lead belay, I am not. It was not the intended question from the op from what I got.
Actually:
Mut wrote: Yes I am lead climbing with her. Actually we plan to climb a 300ft 5.6 to warm up.
Perhaps there are people in the world who have the experience, knowledge, and luck to pull this off, but I have my doubts about someone who has to go "to the local climbing store to look at the gri-gri" in order to determine whether it or the "one similar device" is the right tool for the job.
Mut: I want you and your daughter to live long, happy, fulfilled lives. Please rethink your plan. |
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By PRRose
From Boulder
Oct 8, 2009
| JPVallone wrote: Well Rich is talking about a lead belay, very different application, but just teaching someone to belay a traditional top rope, there are many ways to do it, I do it all the time, and yes for a living, I am not getting defensive here, and I like the tone of your post saxfield, but I just think it is very possible to do this with some precautions and many easy applicable back ups, its not hard. As for the amount of time climbing verses knowledge, I dont know anything about Rich Goldstone, but thats great 40 years, There are old climbers and bold climbers, but no old bold climbers, Mike Donahue taught me that. Butamount of years climbing has nothing to do with modern techniques and maybe different ways of doing it. I just taught a guides course to someone who has been guiding for 35 years, twice as long as I have even been a climber, I was intimidated and thought what could I teach this guy, He was overwhelemed, Been doing it the same way for 35 years, and filled his note book. Just saying, Experience is knowledge, but so is reading current literature and being open to knew techniques, Look what happened to the skiing industry, The teenagers are pushing the sport by taking what the old have left and building on it. I am not saying I know the best way, there are a million ways to skin the cat, but I do my best to stay up to times and keep my self in tune with many trainings a year and staying up to date on techniques and ideas for dealing with the ops concern and much more. Knowledge is like star wars, young apprentice, jedi knights, Jedi's, and Jedi Masters, I keep looking for my Yoda, and keep finding them and working with them and surrounding myself with them, unfortunately my Yoda's keep getting killed in the mountains, but have left me with much to learn, practice and pass on.
I think Rich Goldstone might be, in fact, both old and bold. His contributions regarding proper use of equipment are as up-to-date as anyone's, as well as being informed by decades of experience. In the final analysis, physics is physics--and he knows physics.
That being said, you seem to feel strongly that a seven year old can belay an adult (because, among other things, you can belay a fat person). So, instead of simply declaring that it is so, how about contributing by explaining how it is done?
Also keep in mind that the original question was directed at multi-pitch lead climbing belayed by a child, not top-roping. |
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By Rob Kepley
From Westminster,CO
Oct 8, 2009
|
I thought I had accidentally logged onto this site when I opened this thread!
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By JPVallone
Oct 8, 2009
| PRRose wrote: I think Rich Goldstone might be, in fact, both old and bold. His contributions regarding proper use of equipment are as up-to-date as anyone's, as well as being informed by decades of experience. In the final analysis, physics is physics--and he knows physics. That being said, you seem to feel strongly that a seven year old can belay an adult (because, among other things, you can belay a fat person). So, instead of simply declaring that it is so, how about contributing by explaining how it is done? Also keep in mind that the original question was directed at multi-pitch lead climbing belayed by a child, not top-roping.
Lead Climbing
Ok, I will explain, Actually It is easier than you think to get a safe lead belay and I will tell you why, Takes a bit of a set up , but it is not as bad as you think. And if you are on a multipitch climb with a 8 year old then speed is probably not a concern. Teaching is , providing an experience that they can take away some tools and techinques away with them. I am a guide, that doesn't necasarily make me a better climber than you or any safer, but I do believe in empowering people I climb with and providing an experience that makes them my partner and not my client. Its gratifying.
While stacking the rope tie a catastrophe not every 10 or 15 feet, an over hand lose works well. This will come to the brake side of the device in the belayers brake hand, The belayer will always have hands on the brake while untying the knots and probably two hands even better, If the belayer blows it you have the knot.
Gage your climb so you place pro every time the belayer is untying the knots. So every 10 feet the belayer is untying a catastrophe knot while you are placing pro. Choose the appropriate climb, obiviously in your comfort zone were you will not wig out if you stand there for 5 seconds while the belayer removes a knot.
The anchor needs to have opposition, If the kid can remove gear I am sure he can belay. Either the belay is directly off the anchor even for a lead belay, which is being researched and studied very closely by the ACMG, or Candaian mountain guides and there are many pros to this. The videos from tests are alarming, but that is a whole nother topic. or the belayer is in an upward placed anchor and the belayer belays off the belay loop which is in return attached to the oposistional anchor, essentially a ground anchor that is adequate to take the load so the belayers body doesnt. The belayer can still be in gear above that allows them to sit or lean back in a normal stance, so for his body weight and not to take the lead fall it wont need to if you set a good upward anchor and the belay is set up proper to take the load on to this anchor. If the ground anchor to the child is on the right side of his body to the belay loop then brake hand should be on the right and vice a versa, This is an important attention to detail in the technique. If the belay anchor is straight through his legs then it won't matter, but It's a whole new issue if the ground anchor and belay hand are on different sides. I don't know if most in here can see this in there head but in that case if the climber falls the belayer brakes and the load takes, the belayer will be spun around and lose the break potentially, so Details, Brake hand and ground anchor to the belay loop are always on the same side.
Say you get to the top of the pitch and you want to be lowered, no problem let your 8 year old lower you, You guys think Im crazy after that statement. Build your adequate anchor, go through all the normal lowering procedures and commands, Before you are lowered put a friction hitch on the other side of the rope, the belayers side attached to you, ride it like you would an autoblock or rappel back up, If your belayer loses it let go of the back up, you have closed your self in counterbalance to yourself in a loop. You have eyes on and are teaching and coaching. You still let your belayer go through the motions, have a responsibility and have some control, but you still have the system closed and backed up. You are teaching the student skills for life and empowering them to treat them as a partner and not a little kid that isnt old enough yet. Get them involved, My opinion but I believe in it.
TOP ROPES
and finally for traditional top rope belays, A back up belayer is great, two more hands on the rope, No ground anchor and you outweigh them, clip the back up belayer to the belayer, Ok, No back up belayer? If a ground anchor is strong enough and there , Use it, the belayer can put much of the load onto it if its good enough. Still need more friction for the lower or holding power, Use a high friction device, the new reverso's are not bad, or an old stitch plate with the narrow slots, Still not enough friction, put another carabiner in the device. Worse because its strenuous but effective, a thicker rope, Still not enough friction, In gyms the ropes are rapped a couple of times over the big bar up top for more friction, Outside, you can twist the climbing side and the belay side of the rope a couple times. Still scared to get lowered, use the same technique as above and close the system with a friction hitch on the belayers side attached to you.
Wow, did I just say all that, Well here it comes, I will bend over and hold my ankles while brad and crew have fun with these reccomendations. Let me have it boys, I'm bored.
And no disrespect to goldstone and none was implied, I don't know who he is. I didn't attack him the way brad attacked me, I try not to attack people I don't know which is a common theme here, unless they are trolling, or just say something absolutely ridiculous which kind of happens here everyday. I understand physics too, maybe not the way goldstone does, but I have beat the physics he explains with back ups and friction in my explanation, with the techniques I have suggested the physics are different |
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By JPVallone
Oct 8, 2009
| PRRose wrote: (because, among other things, you can belay a fat person).
They actually belayed eachother, Yes first time blind belayers belaying blind climbers |
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By JPVallone
Oct 8, 2009
| Primo Boudreaux wrote: If she's anchored, she'll likely suffer serious bruising from her harness. The flip side is, well, she lets go of the rope to avoid injury to herself...or as a result of injury to herself.
This can be avoided through the techniques in my post, If you set up the ground anchor the wrong way and squish the belayer by clipping the back of there harnes to the ground anchor while they belay off the front, Yes, you will hurt them, This is not the way to set it up, if your belayer is getting bruised or losing the break you have used a bad technique that sets them up that way
If the belayer is in the right stance and tight to the anchor and clipped to the anchor in the belay loop with the brake hand on the same side as anchor, they will not lose there stance and surpisingly enough, that ground anchor will take much of the load |
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By saxfiend
Administrator
From Atlanta, GA
Oct 8, 2009
| JPVallone wrote: As for the amount of time climbing verses knowledge, I dont know anything about Rich Goldstone,
Heh, ask around!
JL |
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By PRRose
From Boulder
Oct 8, 2009
| That is kind of what I expected--it boils down to belaying off the anchors with stopper knots and, btw, the leader can't fall. There are obvious problems with that set-up, including: relying on a seven year-old to be able to untie the stopper knots (particularly difficult if one fed hard against the belay device); and extraordinary difficulties in the event of a leader fall (especially if the leader was injured or hanging). Oh, and what happens to the child's hand when its caught between the belay device and a stopper knot in a fall? |
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By Crag Dweller
From Denver, CO
Oct 8, 2009
| rgold wrote: I guess I belong to the "this is a really bad idea" club. Attention span and cognitive development are certainly issues. Putting a kid in a position of responsibility for your life is just plain wrong in my book. What the hell are they expected to do if you are hanging there hurt? If your response is that you aren't going to fall, then pile the rope neatly, solo the pitch, and give the kid a pass on the belaying task altogether. If they are going to be made to belay, any kind of friction device, e.g. eights (OMG!!!!), ATC's, tubes, is out. Such devices are all force multipliers, meaning that they essentially multiply your gripping strength. A seven year-old just plain doesn't have enough grip strength, even after multiplication, to hold a leader fall by an adult, unless the adult is fortunate enough to have lots of friction in the system. So, the device has to be an autolocker, like a gri-gri, on a solid anchor. But gri-gris can be tricky, and some leaders have been dropped by adult gri-gri belayers. The only sensible thing is to go as a party of three with another adult.
+1 |
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By JPVallone
Oct 8, 2009
| PRRose wrote: That is kind of what I expected--it boils down to belaying off the anchors with stopper knots and, btw, the leader can't fall. There are obvious problems with that set-up, including: relying on a seven year-old to be able to untie the stopper knots (particularly difficult if one fed hard against the belay device); and extraordinary difficulties in the event of a leader fall (especially if the leader was injured or hanging). Oh, and what happens to the child's hand when its caught between the belay device and a stopper knot in a fall?
Great scenario with the hand, Have them belay with a friction hitch back up behind the device then,make sure it is short enough to not catch up in the device and test it before you go as you should all friction hitches. If this is set up to maintain the brake in the braking position, problem solved. Then he can set pro as often as he likes, The hitch only needs to maintain the bend in the rope to create braking friction position, not the same as holding the load. Do you squeeze the brake strenuously when holding a climber? you maintain a braking position that does not require grip strength as much as maintaining the proper bend in the rope to maintain breaking position.
I have been guiding for 12 years and have never taken a fall, everything from WI pitches above 6000 meters, to 2 folks up the diamond at a time. The rule when guiding is you don't fall you can not fall. This meens appropriate climbs within your limits, if you cant take care of you how will you take care of the inexperienced folks with you. Yes there is always a possiblity of a fall, Short of staying home there is no way to eliminate risk, but what can we do to minimize it. In this case, maybe more gear, pulling on gear, backing off, whatever it is, could be anything. Yes there is the uncontrolable , Falling rock, knocks you out, Lightning, whatever, But choose the appropriate objectives that can provide a less hazards until they are skilled enough to perfom belay escapes and leader rescue, I know that 90% of the guiding I do the guests I have don't know leader rescue. Give them a good progression and give the student a wonderful learning experience. Baby steps.
Yes you can not fall, I have been guiding professionally for 12 years, I am involved in guides trainings extensively. When guiding, which the OP would involuntarily be doing in this scenario you can not fall. So the appropriate climb, the appropriate scenario must be chosen. If he chooses an objective over his head then worst case scenario yes, this can happen. So pull on gear, put more gear, back off, whatever, but be aware of your environment all the time and worst case scenarios, the worst thing would be to put yourself in these situations without awareness, If you are not scared or aware, then that is more often when we get spanked.
Nice discussion PRRrose, actually valid points and your not bashing without backing like others in here. there needs to be more of you in here.
Hopefully the OP is not planning on some remote alpine rock climb to try this out so he wont end up like Goldstone suggests, laying out there somewhere while the kid is helpless and his life is at stake. |
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By Aaron S
From Vegas
Oct 8, 2009
| JP, that sounds like terribly complicated system for a seven year old to handle on her first multipitch climb especially given that she will likely be feeling somewhat overwhelmed just being on a big climb for the first time. It also does nothing to address the myriad of unexpected things that could go wrong and would be difficult for a child to handle (rope getting stuck or tangled, rock fall, her Dad falling and/or getting hurt,etc).
I kind of feel like I might have just gotten sucked into a big joke thread but if Mut is actually considering this he would be far better off just free soloing each pitch and trailing a rope. At least that way if he falls he'll only kill himself and someone might be able to rescue his daughter. |
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By saxfiend
Administrator
From Atlanta, GA
Oct 8, 2009
| Aaron S wrote: I kind of feel like I might have just gotten sucked into a big joke thread
We all did.
JL |
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By JPVallone
Oct 8, 2009
| aaron, I am not suggesting going out to a remote multi pitch climb to deal with a learning environment. I hope mut is joking as well I am sure he is,
The thread got to a point where folks said it cant be done, I said it could in my opinion, which got bashed by people that might not of thought it out, I just gave some ideas to help bring the student into being apart of this and enjoying some responsibility that can be backed up. There are great places to do this, Go to easy climbs with tons of gear so the child can learn these things, I am not talking about a grade III or IV rock climb for a first multipitch. Many introduction multipitch climbs I do are really just 1 and 2 pitch climbs with easy outs and escapes, I am teaching systems and a process that makes them aware of there role as my partner. I often do a single pitch in two. 50 or 60 foot pitches on a 120ft pitch is great, we are trying to teach a kid to belay pogressively, and I just put in my opinion, it was only that, people said it couldnt be done and shouldnt be done. I don't know if these people are thinking that we are just going to dive right out into the petit grepon or hallets or something and teach someone to lead belay and put in these time consuming precautions when speed does count.
I am talking about education at the OPS childs level to provide some wonderful partnership with his child. Could take years before he commits to something big with the kid, But as the child grows hopefully he will have the fundamental skills in his back pocket. For now there is a mellow approach to get the child involved and the kid doesnt have to stay at home if the OP climbs for his kid while doing this and not himself |
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By Mut
Oct 8, 2009
| Brigette wrote: Actually: Perhaps there are people in the world who have the experience, knowledge, and luck to pull this off, but I have my doubts about someone who has to go "to the local climbing store to look at the gri-gri" in order to determine whether it or the "one similar device" is the right tool for the job. Mut: I want you and your daughter to live long, happy, fulfilled lives. Please rethink your plan.
This thread has turned hilarious. You all are sucked into this. Get a life.
Bridgete and all other's who question my judgment, you don't know me and I don't expect you to know anything about me. But I find it lame that I should have to post my climbing resume on here in order to weed through the condencending irrelevant posts about my judgment. I asked for some general knowledge about some gear, not if I should climb with my kid. Bridgette, the reason I asked here and went to the shop to check the gri-gri out is becasue I haven't used one before. Were the hell else would I find out some information about them? Are you kidding me? I've never owned anything other than my 8. It works fine.
I've only been climbing for 18 years but I sure wish I had started 10 years earlier when I was 8. My daughter has been psyched to go climbing all week. So yes, I am going to take her climbing. Yes it's going to be 5.6 so yes it will be safe (I know you only climb 5.9 on toprope and climbing might still be scary for you). Yes I am going to lead, no she's not going to watch her dad get hurt, and after the 46 mostly retarted posts on this topic... i'm not sure what belay method I will use, but it will be bomber.
Thanks for the entertainment. |
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